The War Zone website has an article offering the first
glimpse into weapon expenditures in the Red Sea against the Houthis. As stated by head of Naval Surface Forces,
Vice Adm. Brendan McLane, here are the weapon expenditures:
Total = 220 missiles
Total = 160 shells
CIWS was not mentioned although at least one example of CIWS
use has been documented and acknowledged by the Navy.
Against this expenditure, the Admiral claims “more than 400” targets were engaged.
Elementary arithmetic shows that if the Navy’s 380 total munitions
fired destroyed “more than 400 targets”, that’s a kill ratio (pK) of greater
than 1.0 !!!!! In other words, every
Navy munition killed its target and many killed more than one target. That’s amazing. That’s incredible. That’s unbelievable. No, seriously, that’s not believable. In fact, it’s blatantly wrong.
The admiral continues his unbelievable statements with,
We didn’t engage missiles in WWII so I have no idea what he’s talking about. Aerial targets in WWII required thousands of rounds per hit so, again, I have no idea what he’s referring to.
Further, the good admiral undoubtedly is not including 5”
shells in his statement of analysis as 5” guns have a near-zero chance of
hitting a missile. So, subtracting out
the 5” shells, that means the Navy’s 220 missiles destroyed more than 400
targets for a pK of 1.8 or almost two targets destroyed by each defensive
missile fired. That’s just totally
absurd, of course.
Setting all that aside, the admiral claims that two ‘rounds’
(which I assume to mean missiles) were used per engagement which would conform
to the Navy’s standard ‘shoot, shoot, look’ tactic. That means that the 220 missiles could have
engaged only a maximum of 110 targets not more than 400. That also assumes that every engagement
worked and that would so greatly fly in the face of all historical defensive
missile performance as to be flat out unbelievable. The pK’s throughout history have been
uniformly in the 0.01-0.25 range not 1.0-2.0.
Now, to be fair, the admiral wasn’t offering a detailed
engagement analysis; he was just
providing weapon expenditures and likely threw out a ballpark number of targets
just to provide context. I don’t think he
was lying or even being intentionally misleading.
I can readily imagine that some of the 400 targets were
engaged by aircraft whose weapons (Sidewinders, presumably) weren’t included in
the Navy’s ship weapons expenditure although that would mean that even fewer
targets were actually engaged by ship missiles and that would significantly
lower the pK.
We know that 5” guns are notoriously inaccurate (recall the
Vincennes incident where some one hundred rounds were fired with zero hits) so
the 160 shells fired were probably directed at just a few targets.
Clearly, this scant bit of information the admiral provided
is not useful in analyzing weapon performance, only total expenditure and even
that has gaps in the information since Sidewinders, CIWS, and RAM, among
others, were not mentioned. While the
presumed pathetically poor quality and performance of the attacking missiles
would result in better pK’s than historically found, I’m certain that the pK is
nowhere near 1.0 and, indeed, the admiral’s own claim of two rounds per
engagement disproves the apparent pK.
Unfortunately, until the Navy provides some detailed performance data,
we can only speculate.
The only valid conclusion from the admiral’s statements is
that we are on the wrong side of the cost curve … big time! We’re using $2M-$4M missiles (two at a time!)
to shoot down thousand dollar drones and cheap missiles.
This simply reinforces the common sense conclusion that you
deal with attacks not by defending but by destroying the source of the
attacks. Perhaps the new administration
will take a different view of the Red Sea actions than the previous
administration. We’ll have to wait and
see and, in the meantime, we’ll continue to bleed money, deplete our missile
inventories, and risk our ships while waiting for the inevitable leaker that
gets through.
____________________________
- 120 SM-2 missiles
- 80 SM-6 missiles
- 20 Evolved Sea Sparrow Missiles (ESSM) and SM-3 missiles (combined, for some unknown reason)
- 160 rounds from five-inch guns
Total = 160 shells
“We’ve done the analysis with what we used to shoot in World War II, and we’re at about two rounds per incoming missile,” McLane said.[1]
We didn’t engage missiles in WWII so I have no idea what he’s talking about. Aerial targets in WWII required thousands of rounds per hit so, again, I have no idea what he’s referring to.
https://www.twz.com/news-features/navy-just-disclosed-how-many-of-each-of-its-surface-to-air-missiles-it-fired-during-red-sea-fight
So how many replacements are in the budget? Found this:
ReplyDelete…the US will only produce 12 SM-3 Block IIA annually over the next five years, half of what was procured in FY2023 and a drop from previous years.
Not sure how good the source is, but here (hopefully) is the link:
https://www.businessinsider.com/us-navy-burns-through-key-missiles-needed-for-china-fight-2024-10#:~:text=According%20to%20unclassified%20Pentagon%20budget,a%20drop%20from%20previous%20years.
And for the sm-6, best I could find in a quick search:
ReplyDeleteThe Navy previously sought multiyear procurement authority for the SM-6 during the fiscal year 2024 budget cycle, presenting Congress with plans to procure as many as 825 SM-6 Block IA missiles between FY-24 and FY-28 -- a deal the Navy said would yield $508 million or 13.6% in savings compared to single-year contracts.
https://insidedefense.com/insider/rtx-secures-333-million-sm-6-award#:~:text=The%20missile%20has%20played%20a,told%20Inside%20Defense%20in%20July.
Sorry, promise last spam, but one more, this one from the DOD:
ReplyDeleteFY 2025 Program: Funds the procurement of 125 SM-6 IA missiles and canisters under the second year of a Multiyear Procurement (MYP) contract. The factory will operate at the maximum production rate. RDT&E funding completes Block IB rocket motor prototyping, begins rocket motor Engineering and Manufacturing Development, continues new Electronic Unit efforts for SM-6, continues Aegis architecture and design for SM-6 Block IB extended range capability, the procurement of Block IB components including ground test and controlled test vehicle hardware, MK-29 Mod I canisters for the Block IB flight and safety qualification testing, and seven (7) fleet experimentation rounds.
Prime Contractor(s): Raytheon Missiles & Defense; Tucson, AZ
Standard Missile-6 FY 2023 FY 2024 Qty RDT&E Procurement Total $M - FY 2025 Qty $M Qty $M 298.3 125 489.1 - 125 418.2 1,196.8 - 125 468.3 755.2 125 787.5 125 1,615.0 125 1,223.5
Just to offer a source, the SecNav's website has the budget documents for every year and they contain the detailed breakdown of weapons, quantity, and cost. Check it out.
DeleteNo surprise with Navy lies, its just they're standard operating mode. I also seen an article in the war zone that the AF has been using APKWS II rockets on F-16s to shoot down drones. Since every ship is a carrier in our navy, might not a blackhawk be able to carry a pod or two for shooting down the lower end air threats. Be a lot cheaper than what they're doing now.
ReplyDelete"might not a blackhawk be able to carry a pod or two for shooting down the lower end air threats"
DeleteHelos are quite capable at many tasks IF THEY HAVE THE PROPER LOADOUT AND IF THEY HAPPEN TO BE IN THE EXACT AREA AT THE EXACT MOMENT THAT AN ATTACK OCCURS. The likelihood of that is small which is why helos are far less useful than generally believed.
I suspect at least one ship suffered minor damage from a hit and that is kept secret, just like the deaths of American servicemen and contractors in Ukraine.
ReplyDeleteG2mil
I wonder when the dust settles how many Western servicemen have been killed in that war?
DeleteThe 5" gun was used against drones, aka slow missiles.
ReplyDeleteUSS Stockdale reports downing a drone with the 5",
the RN also downed drones with a 4.5"
Excellent history of VT fuse development and WWII usage.
https://malwarwickonbooks.com/wwii-technology-breakthrough/
"USS Stockdale reports downing a drone with the 5"
DeleteI've read that new item although I'm not sure I believe it as it seems unlikely that a 5" gun would be the weapon of choice in such an engagement. Regardless, the news reports also say,
"A low-flying Houthi drone came at the ship, he [Vice Adm. Brad Cooper] said. The watch stander clocked it, but it was a late detection.
Cooper did not think they would hit, he said, but the guns fired and the drone went down."
Even the admiral didn't think a 5" gun would be effective!
The larger issue is how a drone managed to approach that closely in the face of our vaunted Aegis and regional surveillance assets. After all, our entire future warfighting is based on the premise of regional surveillance and tracking assets, networked together, flawlessly finding and prosecuting every enemy asset - other than slow moving drones, I guess.
It is easy to talk than actually do. Look on what Saudi did during its 8 year war with Houthi (2015-2023). US supported Saudi on diplomatic front and militarily - air fueling Saudi jets and blocking Iranian weapon shipment. Many Republican senators called to end these military supports started by president Obama.
ReplyDeletehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi-led_intervention_in_the_Yemeni_civil_war
In March, 2023, after cut deal with Iran (broke by China), Saudi stopped military actions. Even while US and UK started striking Houthi, Saudi didn't act. It had enough!
Saudi attacked Houthi from air, land, and sea, even an F-15 was shot down. Tons of money spent on US and UK weapons but gained NOTHING.
If US invades Yemen, what will happen?
I don't think comparing the Saudi military with the US military is remotely valid, whether they are western supplied or not. They're a show force...
DeleteThe US wouldn't invade. It's unnecessasary, just like in Iran. A comprehensive campaign that disassembles their capabilites and logistics would require minimal troop usage.
To think that Yemen and the rebels would be more than a speed bump to a properly used US force is silly.
Houthi has few targets to hit. Their missile launchers are mostly mobile. There are very few infrastructures under their control worthy to strike. People there are destitute (extremely poor). Iran supplies them weapons and some economic aids. They fight to gain legitimacy in their circle.
DeleteUS, UK, and Israel struck before but gained almost nothing. A US land invasion would be another Afghan - win militarily but a mess begins.
Why doesn't Saudi "seize the opportunity" to restart fights with Houthi? if not that they had enough, especially spent tons money on US weapons and lost many mercenaries recruited from poor nations.
The CIWS lessons from the Houthi in Red Sea ?
ReplyDeleteEnd of January last year USS Gravely had to use its last ditch defense Phalanx CIWS to take out what was said to be a cruise missile, 600mph?, destroyed it at 1 mile and only a few seconds from impact. A drawback with the Phalanx system is the limited 1 mile effective range and the chance of the missile target debris hitting the ships' radar etc largely depending on the target speed when destroyed, noticeable that the South Korean Navy have invested heavily in the longer range Mk II version of the 30mm Goalkeeper CIWS to replace Phalanx and it might be why one reason Navy decided to replace Phalanx with the longer range 21 round RAM launcher on Burkes.
Though the question remains is why USS Gravely had to use the stand alone Phalanx system as normal Navy practice is to take out threats at minimum of 8 miles, was there was there a failure of the ships' Aegis, SPY-1 or SM-2 missiles, only the Navy knows and is not revealing.
Downsides of RAM as CIWS include its expense at near $1 million per missile, especially if only to take out very cheap drones and it's not a stand-alone system as is the Phalanx system with its short range search and FCR radars, EO/IR etc and control computers, but RAM depending on Aegis and SPY-1 and if either were down for any reason think RAM would be inoperative as perhaps in USS Gravely?
There have been, apparently, more than one instance of drones/missiles making it undetected to within close-in weapons range. Given that our entire concept of future warfare depends on our all-seeing, all-knowing, networked awareness, this is very disturbing though entirely unsurprising. We are basing our future warfare on a sensor system that is proven to be quite fallible. What's wrong with this picture?
DeleteI'd replace the ultra-expensive RAM with a simple Bofors 40mm.
ReplyDeletehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bofors_40_Mk4
The RAMs use IR homing but drones and cruise missiles don't generate much heat and their engine is in the rear so masked by the body. And the 40mm is much better for engaging small sea attack drones and small boats.
The problem with this weapon, like so many others, is that there is no actual performance data beyond manufacturer's claims. It seems highly unlikely that it would be effective in the anti-air role given the slow 300 rpm. By comparison, typical CIWS weapons have rates of fire in the 4000 rpm or more.
DeleteDo you know of any actual test data under realistic conditions?
But CIWS is a bullet while the 40mm is airburst with a timer or proximity fuze. I'm not sure about this specific gun but here are lots of studies or 40mm ammo going back to WWWII.
Deletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAKJXggYc4k
"But CIWS is a bullet while the 40mm is airburst"
DeleteBear in mind that the 40 mm shell weighs a hair over 2 lbs. Compare this to a common missile, say, the Chinese C-802 which weighs several hundred pounds and has a 350-400 lb warhead. I'm not at all sure that a 2 lb shell with a burst charge of perhaps 0.8 lb is going to make much of an impact on a missile.
As Wiki notes,
"After the war, the 3"/50 caliber gun Mark 27 twin mount began to replace the Bofors, because the "VT" proximity fuse would not fit a 40mm projectile, and the 40 mm weapon was considered inadequate against the emerging anti-ship missile threat."
@anon;
DeleteInstead of Bofors 40, as alternative weapon to RAM I prefer the 76mm Sovraponte gun, which has a ready magazine of 72 radar-guided shells. Still more expensive than a dumbfire Bofors 40, but it has a fair bit more explosive payload and shell weight, and the rounds themselves have an inherently better pHit than unguided 40mm.
"radar-guided shells"
DeleteAgain, manufacturer's claims are always nothing short of miraculous and they invariably fall quite a bit short in reality. Do you know of any realistic test data showing that these are actually effective?
Consider: almost every weapon today claims to be radar guided and yet none have worked well in actual combat. Think about the UK's experience in the Falklands. Despite having miraculous radars and missiles, they achieved a pK of only 10%-25% and that was against mostly drone-like targets. And so on.
In theory, 72 radar guided shells should unfailingly destroy 72 targets but does anyone think that's realistic?
If you believe the manufacturer, a single 76 mm gun or a single 40 mm Bofors with programmable shells can win any war single-handed! We're wasting our money on Aegis, Standards, ESSM, RAM, lasers, or anything else.
Easily solved with the time tested "strap 2-4 of them together in the same mount" method!
Delete@CNO: for sure, but my point was more that with 72 rounds, you have a lot more engagements vs RAM, and rounds with more effective payload than 40mm.
DeleteA typical shoot-shoot-look-shoot engament sequence is allocating 3 RAM per target, which means a 21-cell launcher has only 7 engagements. The same engagement pattern with Sovraponte gives you 24 engagements. You get to roll the dice more, by physically throw up more interceptors, it's a biggger volume of fire.
A few thoughts
ReplyDelete"I don’t think he was lying or even being intentionally misleading."
I occurs to me he (the admiral) looks to concatenating a couple different broad data points that are not necessary from the same page. For example targets that intercepted by ECM or passive decoys would be engaged would they not but not necessary end up costing a missile or might than be vulnerable to say a 5 inch gun shot.
Also I see somebody noted already the War Zone story and the use of 70mm rockets. However F-16s would seem to fall outside the Navy but impact maybe the calculation tossed into the admiral's hands somewhat sloppy.
"The only valid conclusion from the admiral’s statements is that we are on the wrong side of the cost curve … big time! "
This seems unavailable in a macro sense. In many cases I can see how it can be minimized and say an adaptive organization should and could take lessons learned from the Red Sea and if it assumes this kind of threat to freedom of navigation will be ongoing make adjustments. But the US military is not say the the military of Israel. The latter is a large military but with a fairly narrow brif of tasks and are of operation. For want of a better description the US military is that of world wide imperial power and as such the laundry list of things the military is asked to do and plan for is fast and varied. Logically this will I think almost always end up with cases of lacking either hyper specialization or a super proper economical solution to any particular problem.
“This simply reinforces the common sense conclusion that you deal with attacks not by defending but by destroying the source of the attacks. Perhaps the new administration will take a different view of the Red Sea actions than the previous administration. We’ll have to wait and see and, in the meantime, we’ll continue to bleed money, deplete our missile inventories, and risk our ships while waiting for the inevitable leaker that gets through. “
Do please clarify on this what exactly are you proposing as an alternative? Which source are you referring to?
"Which source are you referring to?"
DeleteSee, True Multi-Domain War for a start at understanding how to deal with the source of attacks.
PK, I think you made a reply but it got accidentally deleted when I removed the comment you deleted. My apologies and please repost it!
DeleteI will but on consideration I would like to rethink/expand my reply a bit. My tone was somewhat gib and sarcastic unnecessarily so. And reflects more irritation at a parallel bit of in process home rewiring that I'm doing that is more difficult than it need be, duo to shall we say past indifferent work by previous owner(s).
Deleteerr glib not gib
Delete"irritation at a parallel bit of in process home rewiring "
DeleteBeen there, done that! :)
Repost at your leisure.