The War Zone website has an article offering the first
glimpse into weapon expenditures in the Red Sea against the Houthis. As stated by head of Naval Surface Forces,
Vice Adm. Brendan McLane, here are the weapon expenditures:
Total = 220 missiles
Total = 160 shells
CIWS was not mentioned although at least one example of CIWS
use has been documented and acknowledged by the Navy.
Against this expenditure, the Admiral claims “more than 400” targets were engaged.
Elementary arithmetic shows that if the Navy’s 380 total munitions
fired destroyed “more than 400 targets”, that’s a kill ratio (pK) of greater
than 1.0 !!!!! In other words, every
Navy munition killed its target and many killed more than one target. That’s amazing. That’s incredible. That’s unbelievable. No, seriously, that’s not believable. In fact, it’s blatantly wrong.
The admiral continues his unbelievable statements with,
We didn’t engage missiles in WWII so I have no idea what he’s talking about. Aerial targets in WWII required thousands of rounds per hit so, again, I have no idea what he’s referring to.
Further, the good admiral undoubtedly is not including 5”
shells in his statement of analysis as 5” guns have a near-zero chance of
hitting a missile. So, subtracting out
the 5” shells, that means the Navy’s 220 missiles destroyed more than 400
targets for a pK of 1.8 or almost two targets destroyed by each defensive
missile fired. That’s just totally
absurd, of course.
Setting all that aside, the admiral claims that two ‘rounds’
(which I assume to mean missiles) were used per engagement which would conform
to the Navy’s standard ‘shoot, shoot, look’ tactic. That means that the 220 missiles could have
engaged only a maximum of 110 targets not more than 400. That also assumes that every engagement
worked and that would so greatly fly in the face of all historical defensive
missile performance as to be flat out unbelievable. The pK’s throughout history have been
uniformly in the 0.01-0.25 range not 1.0-2.0.
Now, to be fair, the admiral wasn’t offering a detailed
engagement analysis; he was just
providing weapon expenditures and likely threw out a ballpark number of targets
just to provide context. I don’t think he
was lying or even being intentionally misleading.
I can readily imagine that some of the 400 targets were
engaged by aircraft whose weapons (Sidewinders, presumably) weren’t included in
the Navy’s ship weapons expenditure although that would mean that even fewer
targets were actually engaged by ship missiles and that would significantly
lower the pK.
We know that 5” guns are notoriously inaccurate (recall the
Vincennes incident where some one hundred rounds were fired with zero hits) so
the 160 shells fired were probably directed at just a few targets.
Clearly, this scant bit of information the admiral provided
is not useful in analyzing weapon performance, only total expenditure and even
that has gaps in the information since Sidewinders, CIWS, and RAM, among
others, were not mentioned. While the
presumed pathetically poor quality and performance of the attacking missiles
would result in better pK’s than historically found, I’m certain that the pK is
nowhere near 1.0 and, indeed, the admiral’s own claim of two rounds per
engagement disproves the apparent pK.
Unfortunately, until the Navy provides some detailed performance data,
we can only speculate.
The only valid conclusion from the admiral’s statements is
that we are on the wrong side of the cost curve … big time! We’re using $2M-$4M missiles (two at a time!)
to shoot down thousand dollar drones and cheap missiles.
This simply reinforces the common sense conclusion that you
deal with attacks not by defending but by destroying the source of the
attacks. Perhaps the new administration
will take a different view of the Red Sea actions than the previous
administration. We’ll have to wait and
see and, in the meantime, we’ll continue to bleed money, deplete our missile
inventories, and risk our ships while waiting for the inevitable leaker that
gets through.
____________________________
- 120 SM-2 missiles
- 80 SM-6 missiles
- 20 Evolved Sea Sparrow Missiles (ESSM) and SM-3 missiles (combined, for some unknown reason)
- 160 rounds from five-inch guns
Total = 160 shells
“We’ve done the analysis with what we used to shoot in World War II, and we’re at about two rounds per incoming missile,” McLane said.[1]
We didn’t engage missiles in WWII so I have no idea what he’s talking about. Aerial targets in WWII required thousands of rounds per hit so, again, I have no idea what he’s referring to.
https://www.twz.com/news-features/navy-just-disclosed-how-many-of-each-of-its-surface-to-air-missiles-it-fired-during-red-sea-fight
So how many replacements are in the budget? Found this:
ReplyDelete…the US will only produce 12 SM-3 Block IIA annually over the next five years, half of what was procured in FY2023 and a drop from previous years.
Not sure how good the source is, but here (hopefully) is the link:
https://www.businessinsider.com/us-navy-burns-through-key-missiles-needed-for-china-fight-2024-10#:~:text=According%20to%20unclassified%20Pentagon%20budget,a%20drop%20from%20previous%20years.
And for the sm-6, best I could find in a quick search:
ReplyDeleteThe Navy previously sought multiyear procurement authority for the SM-6 during the fiscal year 2024 budget cycle, presenting Congress with plans to procure as many as 825 SM-6 Block IA missiles between FY-24 and FY-28 -- a deal the Navy said would yield $508 million or 13.6% in savings compared to single-year contracts.
https://insidedefense.com/insider/rtx-secures-333-million-sm-6-award#:~:text=The%20missile%20has%20played%20a,told%20Inside%20Defense%20in%20July.
Sorry, promise last spam, but one more, this one from the DOD:
ReplyDeleteFY 2025 Program: Funds the procurement of 125 SM-6 IA missiles and canisters under the second year of a Multiyear Procurement (MYP) contract. The factory will operate at the maximum production rate. RDT&E funding completes Block IB rocket motor prototyping, begins rocket motor Engineering and Manufacturing Development, continues new Electronic Unit efforts for SM-6, continues Aegis architecture and design for SM-6 Block IB extended range capability, the procurement of Block IB components including ground test and controlled test vehicle hardware, MK-29 Mod I canisters for the Block IB flight and safety qualification testing, and seven (7) fleet experimentation rounds.
Prime Contractor(s): Raytheon Missiles & Defense; Tucson, AZ
Standard Missile-6 FY 2023 FY 2024 Qty RDT&E Procurement Total $M - FY 2025 Qty $M Qty $M 298.3 125 489.1 - 125 418.2 1,196.8 - 125 468.3 755.2 125 787.5 125 1,615.0 125 1,223.5
Just to offer a source, the SecNav's website has the budget documents for every year and they contain the detailed breakdown of weapons, quantity, and cost. Check it out.
DeleteNo surprise with Navy lies, its just they're standard operating mode. I also seen an article in the war zone that the AF has been using APKWS II rockets on F-16s to shoot down drones. Since every ship is a carrier in our navy, might not a blackhawk be able to carry a pod or two for shooting down the lower end air threats. Be a lot cheaper than what they're doing now.
ReplyDelete"might not a blackhawk be able to carry a pod or two for shooting down the lower end air threats"
DeleteHelos are quite capable at many tasks IF THEY HAVE THE PROPER LOADOUT AND IF THEY HAPPEN TO BE IN THE EXACT AREA AT THE EXACT MOMENT THAT AN ATTACK OCCURS. The likelihood of that is small which is why helos are far less useful than generally believed.
Royal Navy Helicopter shoots down drone. This has been a program in development for a while but was accelerated after Houthi experiences.
Deletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUoqE1HfNcU
I suspect at least one ship suffered minor damage from a hit and that is kept secret, just like the deaths of American servicemen and contractors in Ukraine.
ReplyDeleteG2mil
I wonder when the dust settles how many Western servicemen have been killed in that war?
DeleteThe 5" gun was used against drones, aka slow missiles.
ReplyDeleteUSS Stockdale reports downing a drone with the 5",
the RN also downed drones with a 4.5"
Excellent history of VT fuse development and WWII usage.
https://malwarwickonbooks.com/wwii-technology-breakthrough/
"USS Stockdale reports downing a drone with the 5"
DeleteI've read that new item although I'm not sure I believe it as it seems unlikely that a 5" gun would be the weapon of choice in such an engagement. Regardless, the news reports also say,
"A low-flying Houthi drone came at the ship, he [Vice Adm. Brad Cooper] said. The watch stander clocked it, but it was a late detection.
Cooper did not think they would hit, he said, but the guns fired and the drone went down."
Even the admiral didn't think a 5" gun would be effective!
The larger issue is how a drone managed to approach that closely in the face of our vaunted Aegis and regional surveillance assets. After all, our entire future warfighting is based on the premise of regional surveillance and tracking assets, networked together, flawlessly finding and prosecuting every enemy asset - other than slow moving drones, I guess.
It is easy to talk than actually do. Look on what Saudi did during its 8 year war with Houthi (2015-2023). US supported Saudi on diplomatic front and militarily - air fueling Saudi jets and blocking Iranian weapon shipment. Many Republican senators called to end these military supports started by president Obama.
ReplyDeletehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi-led_intervention_in_the_Yemeni_civil_war
In March, 2023, after cut deal with Iran (broke by China), Saudi stopped military actions. Even while US and UK started striking Houthi, Saudi didn't act. It had enough!
Saudi attacked Houthi from air, land, and sea, even an F-15 was shot down. Tons of money spent on US and UK weapons but gained NOTHING.
If US invades Yemen, what will happen?
I don't think comparing the Saudi military with the US military is remotely valid, whether they are western supplied or not. They're a show force...
DeleteThe US wouldn't invade. It's unnecessasary, just like in Iran. A comprehensive campaign that disassembles their capabilites and logistics would require minimal troop usage.
To think that Yemen and the rebels would be more than a speed bump to a properly used US force is silly.
Houthi has few targets to hit. Their missile launchers are mostly mobile. There are very few infrastructures under their control worthy to strike. People there are destitute (extremely poor). Iran supplies them weapons and some economic aids. They fight to gain legitimacy in their circle.
DeleteUS, UK, and Israel struck before but gained almost nothing. A US land invasion would be another Afghan - win militarily but a mess begins.
Why doesn't Saudi "seize the opportunity" to restart fights with Houthi? if not that they had enough, especially spent tons money on US weapons and lost many mercenaries recruited from poor nations.
On places like Yemen, or even Iran... nothing needs to be like Afghanistan or Iraq. Simply go in, destroy everything, and kill everyone necessary to end the problem. Then, leave.
DeleteWe aren't obligated to rebuild every country that harbors terrorist trash. Its really simple.
"kill everyone necessary to end the problem. Then, leave.
DeleteWe aren't obligated to rebuild every country that harbors terrorist trash. Its really simple."
You got it! *salute*
The CIWS lessons from the Houthi in Red Sea ?
ReplyDeleteEnd of January last year USS Gravely had to use its last ditch defense Phalanx CIWS to take out what was said to be a cruise missile, 600mph?, destroyed it at 1 mile and only a few seconds from impact. A drawback with the Phalanx system is the limited 1 mile effective range and the chance of the missile target debris hitting the ships' radar etc largely depending on the target speed when destroyed, noticeable that the South Korean Navy have invested heavily in the longer range Mk II version of the 30mm Goalkeeper CIWS to replace Phalanx and it might be why one reason Navy decided to replace Phalanx with the longer range 21 round RAM launcher on Burkes.
Though the question remains is why USS Gravely had to use the stand alone Phalanx system as normal Navy practice is to take out threats at minimum of 8 miles, was there was there a failure of the ships' Aegis, SPY-1 or SM-2 missiles, only the Navy knows and is not revealing.
Downsides of RAM as CIWS include its expense at near $1 million per missile, especially if only to take out very cheap drones and it's not a stand-alone system as is the Phalanx system with its short range search and FCR radars, EO/IR etc and control computers, but RAM depending on Aegis and SPY-1 and if either were down for any reason think RAM would be inoperative as perhaps in USS Gravely?
There have been, apparently, more than one instance of drones/missiles making it undetected to within close-in weapons range. Given that our entire concept of future warfare depends on our all-seeing, all-knowing, networked awareness, this is very disturbing though entirely unsurprising. We are basing our future warfare on a sensor system that is proven to be quite fallible. What's wrong with this picture?
DeleteA cruiser sized ship like a Burke should have a robust CIWS suite with multi-layered weapons in all azimuths.
DeleteAt a minimum it should have a RAM launcher (or SeaRAM) fore and aft, four Phalanx with one in each corner, and four Goalkeeper 30mm with one each fore and aft and one each port and starboard amidships.
It should also have a pair of MK26 type twin-arm launchers, preferable fore and aft, specifically designed and downsized for ESSM.
These systems would supplement the Standard missiles housed in the VLS launchers (and quad-packed ESSM if any are needed beyond the inventory in the MK26-esqe launchers).
A lot of these Houthi missiles and drones should be able to be engaged with the CIWS system.
The problem of collateral damage from a close-in disablement of the incoming missile/drone should be mitigated by a heavy hull and deck construction of, at a minimum, 1 inch of STS backed by a heavy Kevlar spall liner.
Lutefisk
I'd replace the ultra-expensive RAM with a simple Bofors 40mm.
ReplyDeletehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bofors_40_Mk4
The RAMs use IR homing but drones and cruise missiles don't generate much heat and their engine is in the rear so masked by the body. And the 40mm is much better for engaging small sea attack drones and small boats.
The problem with this weapon, like so many others, is that there is no actual performance data beyond manufacturer's claims. It seems highly unlikely that it would be effective in the anti-air role given the slow 300 rpm. By comparison, typical CIWS weapons have rates of fire in the 4000 rpm or more.
DeleteDo you know of any actual test data under realistic conditions?
But CIWS is a bullet while the 40mm is airburst with a timer or proximity fuze. I'm not sure about this specific gun but here are lots of studies or 40mm ammo going back to WWWII.
Deletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAKJXggYc4k
"But CIWS is a bullet while the 40mm is airburst"
DeleteBear in mind that the 40 mm shell weighs a hair over 2 lbs. Compare this to a common missile, say, the Chinese C-802 which weighs several hundred pounds and has a 350-400 lb warhead. I'm not at all sure that a 2 lb shell with a burst charge of perhaps 0.8 lb is going to make much of an impact on a missile.
As Wiki notes,
"After the war, the 3"/50 caliber gun Mark 27 twin mount began to replace the Bofors, because the "VT" proximity fuse would not fit a 40mm projectile, and the 40 mm weapon was considered inadequate against the emerging anti-ship missile threat."
@anon;
DeleteInstead of Bofors 40, as alternative weapon to RAM I prefer the 76mm Sovraponte gun, which has a ready magazine of 72 radar-guided shells. Still more expensive than a dumbfire Bofors 40, but it has a fair bit more explosive payload and shell weight, and the rounds themselves have an inherently better pHit than unguided 40mm.
"radar-guided shells"
DeleteAgain, manufacturer's claims are always nothing short of miraculous and they invariably fall quite a bit short in reality. Do you know of any realistic test data showing that these are actually effective?
Consider: almost every weapon today claims to be radar guided and yet none have worked well in actual combat. Think about the UK's experience in the Falklands. Despite having miraculous radars and missiles, they achieved a pK of only 10%-25% and that was against mostly drone-like targets. And so on.
In theory, 72 radar guided shells should unfailingly destroy 72 targets but does anyone think that's realistic?
If you believe the manufacturer, a single 76 mm gun or a single 40 mm Bofors with programmable shells can win any war single-handed! We're wasting our money on Aegis, Standards, ESSM, RAM, lasers, or anything else.
Easily solved with the time tested "strap 2-4 of them together in the same mount" method!
Delete@CNO: for sure, but my point was more that with 72 rounds, you have a lot more engagements vs RAM, and rounds with more effective payload than 40mm.
DeleteA typical shoot-shoot-look-shoot engament sequence is allocating 3 RAM per target, which means a 21-cell launcher has only 7 engagements. The same engagement pattern with Sovraponte gives you 24 engagements. You get to roll the dice more, by physically throw up more interceptors, it's a biggger volume of fire.
One more thing to consider is cost: at 25k per round, DART is several orders of magnitude cheaper than RAM, which is 900k per missile. You're literally getting 36 DARTs for one RAM. At those prices, you can absokutely just blaze away and get yourself volume of fire, especially if you're using a foredeck mount with belowdeck magazine.
Delete" with 72 rounds, you have a lot more engagements vs RAM"
DeleteThat's only a true statement if you believe that every round is a one-shot kill and I don't think anyone believes that - not even the manufacturer!
Unless you believe the system provides unheard of accuracy, 72 rds may only be one or two engagements - a far more likely and believable scenario.
"typical shoot-shoot-look-shoot engament sequence is allocating 3 RAM per target"
Where did you get that? I've never heard of a multi-shoot engagement sequence for RAM and, in fact, it's probably not possible given the closeness and speed of the approaching target. I'm pretty sure RAM is used in a single shot method and if you get real lucky, maybe you get a second shot but that seems unlikely.
"same engagement pattern with Sovraponte gives you 24 engagements."
Again, I don't know for sure but firing two shells and then waiting would be unlike any other gun engagement sequence I've ever heard of.
I can't definitively disprove what you've stated buy I'm as sure as I can be that it's wrong. You need to either present some evidence to support your statements or go research actual gun/missile engagement methodologies.
I'll leave these comments stand for a couple days and then, if you haven't provided any evidence, I'll probably delete them as factually incorrect.
"cheaper than RAM"
DeleteThis is an incorrect way to look at munition costs. The correct way is to look at the number/cost of munitions required to destroy a target. No one but the manufacturer believes a single DART will kill a target and the manufacturer doesn't even make that claim. If it takes, say, 36 DARTS to destroy a target then they cost the same as a RAM (assuming a RAM can destroy a target in one shot). So, again, unless you have data on realistic testing under combat conditions that shows DARTS are one-shot/one-kill wonders, your analysis is incorrect.
There's some nuance which has been overlooked by the participants so far, so I'm gonna throw in my two cents.
DeleteThe USN's doctrinal missile engagement pattern is shoot-shoot-look-shoot, albeit this is the prescribed pattern for engagement with SM-2/6 and ESSM, which are engaging at the radar horizon, which is about 3 times the range of RAM and Strales (the entire 76mm point defense system, of which DART is the ammo and Sovraponte is a specific execution of gun).
Strales as a system aspirationally goes for single shot kill to minimise radar clutter, as does RAM. This means that the gun will be engaging in semi auto mode. You aren't going to see RAM cells being flushed either; to avoid successive missiles locking onto the exhaust of the first missile, there's an interval delay in between RAM launches. DART doesn't have this problem, being a radar beam rider; the other hand, RAM is a fire and forget weapon, vs DART which needs to be guided towards the target. Warheads are a wash; both are VT fused frag.
That said, ultimately these are both alternative means of doing the same job that are complete nonstarters outside their respective navies. The US owns RAM, it developed RAM, it has the tooling to make more RAM missiles to fit the needs of the US Navy. The Italians developed Strales because they didn't have RAM, they didn't want to lisence RAM, and because they already had domestic industry making 76mm guns - the OTO Melara 76mm is THE frigate gun of choice worldwide, and the Italian FREMMs mount Strales so that the main gun can be truly multipurpose (and feeding from the belowdecks magazine really helps with magazine depth).
This is all a moot point because we're never going to replace RAM with Strales. That ship sailed years ago. 76mm went away with the Perrys, and Big Navy has decided, however rightly or wrongly, that instead of using the 76mm from the parent FREMM design, the Constellations are going to use the Bofors 57mm because we've got the existing tooling and lisences for it.
(My personal vote, in a vacuum where costs don't matter, is for RAM, because it's a self-guiding heatseeker and can't be jammed.)
"This is an incorrect way to look at munition costs. The correct way is to look at the number/cost of munitions required to destroy a target. No one but the manufacturer believes a single DART will kill a target and the manufacturer doesn't even make that claim."
This is very true, and I just want to piggyback off this to talk about a few points:
First, the manufacturer itself claims that 3 rounds is sufficient to ensure a kill against a maneuvering ASCM. I reckon that 9 rounds would do the job, just to be on the safe side, which leaves the Sovraponte mount with 8 stored kills, which is a little worse thann with RAM, if we assume 2 RAM to guarantee a kill - 21 cells/2 RAM = 10.5 stored kills. (The math is worse if we do a comparison with the SeaRAM mount, which has only 11 missiles). That's a cost of 225 thousand to secure a kill, which is still a quarter the cost of RAM.
Secondly, in a total war situation, monetary costs don't really mean all that much. Industry will produce what is needed with the resources we secure. However, as CNO pointed out a few years ago, monetary costs are still useful because they give an idea of how easy or hard it is to produce something. At 25 thousand per round, we can see that producing 76mm DART rounds is easier than a single RAM costing 900 thousand. We're never going to be able to easily ramp up our missile production, so what we really need to be doing is starting to build up our missile stockpiles if we anticipate a war in the next decade. We really should have been working on this a decade ago, but the GWOT has been a massive distraction to our focus.
"manufacturer itself claims that 3 rounds is sufficient to ensure a kill"
DeleteI don't believe that for a moment. Are you aware of any realistic testing that supports that claim? As a reader of this blog, you certainly know all the manufacturer's claims that have proven to be somewhere between totally false and extremely exaggerated. Thus, 3 rds per kill seems ludicrous. I suspect it would be more like 20-50 and that's probably optimistic. I'm unaware of ANY gun other than a CIWS (rates of fire in the several thousand rds per minute!) that can hit a missile barring pure, dumb luck.
Here's what the Leonardo website has to say about DART testing:
"An Initial batch of production was completed and ammunition was made available for acceptance tests and live firing demos.
In June, on board the Italian Navy ship " Foscari", a firing campaign against surface targets and simulated air targets took place in Sicily to demonstrate accuracy and reliability of serial DART ammunition.
The tests took place in front of several foreign Navies delegations hosted by the Italian Navy. The results of the firing trials were very positive demonstrating guidance accuracy at very low altitude above sea and against air simulated maneuvering targets. Ten rounds were fired against 1.5 m diameter sphere target at about 5 km range and 8 of them exploded on the target detected by RF proximity fuse.
Other ten rounds were fired in different engagements also against simulated high "G" maneuvering missiles at a range between 3 and 5 km and all rounds passed within fuse sensitivity radius from the aimed point."
Note the constant use of the word, "SIMULATED" for air targets.
I've been unable to find any test data against actual missiles. Are you aware of any?
Why not replace the $1 million RAM missiles with $20,000 rockets with a simple proximity fuze, which have been around since WWII. Then you can launch a flurry of them and maintain large wartime stockpiles. These airbursting rockets would also disrupt radar tracking, so maybe some rockets can explode flares and chaff like a firework.
DeleteG2mil
"replace the $1 million RAM missiles with $20,000 rockets with a simple proximity fuze"
DeleteI don't think unguided rockets launched in very slow volleys (relative to, say, a CIWS with thousands of rds/min) would have any chance, whatsoever, of getting near enough to a terminal maneuvering, Mach or Mach+ missile to be effective.
This would, essentially, be a 5" gun shooting unguided, proximity fused rounds and no one believes a 5" gun can shoot down a missile, barring dumb luck.
For ship defense, the missiles are incoming so the speed of the rocket don't matter. If it expodes in the path of the missile that will produce a huge kill area. If a volley expodes all around, the missile is unlikely to survive.
Delete"the speed of the rocket don't matter."
DeleteOf course it matters! The speed of the rocket determines whether it can get to the predicted intercept point in time before the missile passes or veers in another direction. It would not be possible to assemble a volley due to the speed of the incoming missile and the slowness of rocket launching.
DART's guidance is radar beam riding, which is where the round is manuevering to follow the target the director is paining. I don't appreciably see much difference between that and an engagement with SM-2 or ESSM. If the quibble is that the guidance won't get the round in the right place to detonate and throw up flak, logically the same issue affects our interceptor SAMs as well.
DeleteWhich begs the question why we are spending billions of dollars on interceptor SAMs that won't work.
"radar beam riding, ... I don't appreciably see much difference between that and an engagement with SM-2 or ESSM"
DeleteThere's not much difference! The historical success rate of surface to air missiles is extremely poor (1%-25% against near drone-like targets). I don't expect DART to be any different.
There is, however, one major difference you're overlooking and that is the warhead size. The warhead on, say, an SM-6 is around 140 lbs. Even the smaller ESSM warhead is around 86 lbs. Compare that to the warhead (if that term can even be applied!) to a DART which is around 0.8 lb. A Standard or ESSM just needs to be in the general vicinity of the target to be effective whereas the DART pretty much needs to hit the target since it just can't put out much shrapnel. Another way of saying it is that the kill sphere of a Standard/ESSM is hugely larger than a DART.
Now think about the shrapnel from a DART. Each piece must be around, what, a few ounces? Is that sufficient to knock out a missile even if it hits? I'm extremely skeptical.
Until I see some realistic (not SIMULATED!) test data, I'm guided (pardon the pun) by the historical and logical evidence which strongly suggests that the manufacturer's claim is wildly overstated and a gun of that type is likely to be ineffective against real world missiles.
Interestingly, at 0.88 lbs, the bursting charge on DART is actually larger than the bursting charge on the 3" AA VT shells we used immediately after WW2 (0.5 lb).
DeleteBy the way, I managed to find a video of the Italian corvette Foscari conducting Strales tests, engaging drone targets flying at seaskimming heights: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61YnsQ1v0mw
For what it's worth, I consider Strales and RAM to be equally unproven. At best, both systems have engaged target drones simulating incoming antiship missiles. I am unaware of any real world usage of RAM or of any significant stress testing of the system, which is concerning given the USN's faith in it, and attempts to find details on live fire testing of RAM in open sources are muddied by press releases that make no distinction of test fires to make sure the system works, and actual test engagements.
I am unaware of any realistic RAM testing. The video was next to worthless as far as realistic testing. The surface shots were against a motionless target. The aerial shots were against a ?balloon? being towed? The Banshees were recovered, apparently intact so they didn't seem to be hit. The target, whatever it was, was flying straight and level at 100 m/s (220 mph) which is nowhere near typical of an anti-ship missile. That doesn't simulate any anti-ship missile.
DeleteTo be precise, the recovered Banshee drone was a unit outfitted with cameras recording a top down view of the engagement, while the aerial shots were against other Banshee drones acting as targets.
DeleteWhile that speed is so slow as to be almost meaningless as a threat surrogate, it does show that DART can be accurately guided onto a small target that's a fraction of the size and RCS of an antiship missile (especially with its fiberglass construction). That implies that the same ought to be possible for legacy ESSM and SM-2, let alone the active radar guided variants.
Anyhow, it's disappointing that there isn't much testing done against the Coyote missile target. It's really an honest to goodness supersonic cruise missile in its own right, and we really should be testing against it.
"Coyote missile target. It's really an honest to goodness supersonic cruise missile in its own right, and we really should be testing against it."
DeleteGranted it's a supersonic drone. However, before you think that would solve our testing problems, consider what are the characteristics of an actual enemy anti-ship missile? They are high subsonic or supersonic, wave skimming, have terminal maneuvering, may use popup maneuvers, have penetration aids and will appear with little or no warning and in swarms. THAT'S what we need our threat surrogates to be and do. How many of those boxes does the Coyote check? As far as I know ... just one - it's supersonic. So, as a valid threat surrogate, it's not. It may be better than a Banshee but barely. It's like saying that an automobile with three wheels is better than an automobile with two wheels. That may be true but it's still pretty much useless.
A few thoughts
ReplyDelete"I don’t think he was lying or even being intentionally misleading."
I occurs to me he (the admiral) looks to concatenating a couple different broad data points that are not necessary from the same page. For example targets that intercepted by ECM or passive decoys would be engaged would they not but not necessary end up costing a missile or might than be vulnerable to say a 5 inch gun shot.
Also I see somebody noted already the War Zone story and the use of 70mm rockets. However F-16s would seem to fall outside the Navy but impact maybe the calculation tossed into the admiral's hands somewhat sloppy.
"The only valid conclusion from the admiral’s statements is that we are on the wrong side of the cost curve … big time! "
This seems unavailable in a macro sense. In many cases I can see how it can be minimized and say an adaptive organization should and could take lessons learned from the Red Sea and if it assumes this kind of threat to freedom of navigation will be ongoing make adjustments. But the US military is not say the the military of Israel. The latter is a large military but with a fairly narrow brif of tasks and are of operation. For want of a better description the US military is that of world wide imperial power and as such the laundry list of things the military is asked to do and plan for is fast and varied. Logically this will I think almost always end up with cases of lacking either hyper specialization or a super proper economical solution to any particular problem.
“This simply reinforces the common sense conclusion that you deal with attacks not by defending but by destroying the source of the attacks. Perhaps the new administration will take a different view of the Red Sea actions than the previous administration. We’ll have to wait and see and, in the meantime, we’ll continue to bleed money, deplete our missile inventories, and risk our ships while waiting for the inevitable leaker that gets through. “
Do please clarify on this what exactly are you proposing as an alternative? Which source are you referring to?
"Which source are you referring to?"
DeleteSee, True Multi-Domain War for a start at understanding how to deal with the source of attacks.
PK, I think you made a reply but it got accidentally deleted when I removed the comment you deleted. My apologies and please repost it!
DeleteI will but on consideration I would like to rethink/expand my reply a bit. My tone was somewhat gib and sarcastic unnecessarily so. And reflects more irritation at a parallel bit of in process home rewiring that I'm doing that is more difficult than it need be, duo to shall we say past indifferent work by previous owner(s).
Deleteerr glib not gib
Delete"irritation at a parallel bit of in process home rewiring "
DeleteBeen there, done that! :)
Repost at your leisure.
"if it assumes this kind of threat to freedom of navigation will be ongoing make adjustments."
DeleteYou may be missing a key concept. A ship should be designed to deal with threats across the entire spectrum. For example, in WWII, ships had AA weapons ranging from long range 5" guns, to medium range 40mm guns, to short range 20mm guns. They were equipped for any threat at any range. In contrast, today, we are heavily skewed towards the high end, most complex weapons and have ignored the simple, short range weapons. We need to restore the conceptual balance of weapons that we had in WWII.
CNO, just reread your post from January 24 on true multi domain War. You referenced the idea of a financial war with China. I'd love to see you flesh out that concept! Sorry if I missed it, but I couldn't find such a post in the archives.
ReplyDelete"just reread your post from"
DeleteRereading posts is an excellent use of time!
"financial war with China"
This is a military blog not a financial one so I won't go into too much detail. The basic concept is to isolate China in terms of trade, banking, critical raw materials, etc. Consider what would happen if every country ceased trading with China and pulled all their manufacturing out of China. The West still has a robust trade system and economy without China. The reverse, however, is not true. China has no robust trade system without the West. On top of that, cut China off from all access to banking systems so that they cannot move monies around internationally. China's economy would collapse in short order.
Yes, there would be short term pain for the West but it would devastate China and anything the West loses from China would be quickly made up from increased domestic production and consumption.
You can sum it up thusly: China needs the West. The West doesn't need China.
Things have changed a LOT in the last five years or so.
DeleteChina now buys oil in RMB, not dollars. Even Saudi is happy to take RMB. China buys what few raw materials they need mainly in RMB, not dollars. Africa and other places in the global south supply most things China doesn't have direct access to. China buys food in RMB primarily, not dollars. And they have steered most of their food purchases to the global south, such as Brazil, instead of the west. American and other western farmers are painfully aware of this.
China is still a little behind the best western state of the art chip technology, but they are catching up fast with Huawei leading the charge.
While China has the largest reserve pool of US dollars in the world, there is a very healthy trade system running in the global south that trades primarily in local currencies, not US dollars. If you have the spare time, the YouTube channel "Inside China Business" is excellent for showing what is really happening in world trade, particularly concerning China's role in it. The supply chain analysis for various industries is particularly good and I highly recommend it.
Most of China's current trade partners are highly dependent on the West and in a showdown, would side with the West. Similarly, most banking institutions and systems are highly dependent on the West and would abandon China if forced to make a choice. The Saudis, for example, if forced, would choose to supply the West with oil rather than China due to their dependence on the West for all manner of goods and services.
DeleteYou've seen, both now and previously, the impact that the simple threat of tariffs, alone, has on China, let alone total financial war.
You're looking at peacetime trade whereas you need to imagine wartime trade. The two are not the same.
Again, this is not a financial blog so we've probably covered this about as much as necessary. Thanks.
Would note the Army thinking with the MDAC AA program driven by need to keep costs low, using a 155mm hypervelocity shell, the BAE saboted HVP, a version which can also be used in the Mk45 5". The HVP will be relatively cheap round compared the expensive Excaliber which over a $100,000, instead of using internal guidance of the HVP it will be by a high definition ground radar guidance to command a change of direction of the HVP from the ground using explosive bolts to hit the target, maybe similar to the ACMs in the Patriot 3 HTK missile.
ReplyDeleteNoticeable no mention made of DEW – lasers.
That's like duck hunting with a rifle.
DeleteCheck out the Army radar requirements for the MDAC AA
Deletehttps://www.militaryaerospace.com/sensors/article/55249373/radar-guidance-for-hypervelocity-projectiles
"Army radar requirements"
DeleteAnd right there you see the beginnings of yet another failed program. Instead of identifying a single, main function, the Army wants a radar that can do everything. The problem is that "everything" is technically unachievable and costs "all you've got". Won't work and will break the bank. That's a failed program before it's even begun.
Someday, we'll look back and wonder how it all went wrong. Well, it went wrong right here, right now, before it even began!
Presuming the Army basing radar specs on the previous Picatinny Arsenal 50mm EAPS program which used a Technovative Applications CW interferometer radar (not a pulse doppler radar) which claims tracking accuracy to a centimeter/0.4 inch for both target and projectile for guidance and assume it was successful in the EAPS program for search, targeting and guidance?
Deletehttps://www.army.mil/article/151792/innovative_army_technology_gains_new_potential