Monday, December 15, 2025

The Next Frigate Disaster

Now that the Constellation has failed miserably, the Navy has semi-formally stated that the next frigate will be a modified Coast Guard National Security Cutter (NSC, Legend class) and will be in the water by 2028.[1]         Sorry for the pause, there.  I had to retype that sentence several times because I kept making mistakes trying to type while laughing hysterically.  From vague concept to in the water in three years or less – that’s hilarious!
 
“We believe the future frigate can be in the water in 2028,” Jason Potter, the Navy’s acting acquisition executive, told attendees today at the Defense Forum here in Washington.[1]
 
[SecNav] Phelan also recently told attendees at a private dinner that the new frigate would be a modified National Security Cutter … [1]
 
Navy Secretary John Phelan said the new frigate would be based on an American design and stressed that any change orders would have to go through him.[1]

While such a timetable ought to be easily achievable, the recent record of Navy shipbuilding renders it a laughable fantasy.
 
Let’s set that aside and take a quick glance at the NSC and examine some potential issues.
 
National Security Cutter

Concurrency.  It’s not even a formal program, yet, and there’s already a potentially troubling bit of news, as indicated below.
 
He [Jason Potter] said the service was focused on using a design approach that separates finalizing the ship’s design from the construction of the lead ship … [1]

That’s a frightening statement because I don’t know what it means.  One of the Navy’s persistent, major problems with shipbuilding is concurrency which results in construction without a complete design.  In other words, unbelievably, the construction is treated as a separate issue from design.  Potter’s statement could be interpreted as saying that construction will NOT be linked to a requirement for a complete design (the “separation” he mentions).  If so, this would be simply repeating an approach that has failed every time it’s been used.  Did Potter just lay the groundwork for the failure of this program before it’s even become a formal program or did he mean something different and, if so, what did he mean?
 
Size.  The NSC, as it exists in Coast Guard service, measures 418ft long and 54ft in beam.  In comparison, the Constellation is 496ft x 65ft.  Thus, the NSC is 16% shorter and 17% narrower.  That’s a significant chunk of deck space and internal volume “gone”.  The Constellation was not exactly heavily armed to begin with and the reduced size of the NSC is, presumably, going to require significant reductions in the weapons fit compared to the Constellation.  If it comes with a commensurate reduction in cost, that might be okay but we’ve seen time and again that costs do not decrease in scale with capability decreases.  The Constellation was, itself, a third the capabilities of a Burke at 80%, or so, of the cost.  If the NSC “shrinks” at the same rate from the Constellation, we’ll have something on the order of 20% of the capabilities of a Burke at 60% of the cost.
 
CONOPS.  The discussion of capabilities leads us into the next troublesome issue and that is … of course you know what it is … CONOPS!  SecNav has apparently already chosen a ship to build, established a timetable, and is talking about design and construction processes but …    where is the CONOPS?  The Constellation never had one so they won’t be reusing that.  What is this frigate supposed to do?  What is its focus?  Its mission?  It’s going to have fewer capabilities than the Constellation, presumably, so it really needs to have a tight mission focus to ensure that it can be effective in whatever its role will be.  Otherwise, we’re going to wind up with a mini-mini-Burke.  Mini2-Burke?  I’m already sensing a ship that will attempt to do a very small amount of everything and will do absolutely nothing even slightly well.  To paraphrase … Jack of no trades, adequate of none?
 
Change Orders.  As noted above, SecNav has, apparently, identified change orders as a problem in shipbuilding, claiming that change orders will have to go through him.  If, by that, he means he won’t be approving any, that’s great.  On the other hand, if he simply means he’ll rubber stamp the change orders than we just have a sound bite with no actual improvement in the shipbuilding process.  As a reminder, all waivers for ship construction and trials must go through the CNO, personally.  The problem is that no CNO has ever met a waiver he didn’t approve so what’s the point of the approval process?  Will SecNav just become an automatic approval for change orders?  The mere fact that he even states that change orders must go through him implies that he will approve some/all.  This is the wrong approach.  He should have flatly stated that once the design is set there will be no change orders … period!  But … he didn’t.  Again, this is establishing the groundwork for failure, already.
 
Structure.  It is unknown whether the NSC meets Navy structural standards as regards strength, compartmentation, weight margins, etc.  The NSC is reportedly built to 80-90% military standards but what is lacking and how critical it is, is unknown.  As you recall, the Constellation program got in trouble trying to modify the FREMM to USN construction and survivability standards.  Will history repeat itself, here?
 
Testing.  The NSC has a near mythical reputation among naval observers who have constantly called for the Navy to adopt/adapt the NSC to naval use.  The reality, however, is that the NSC, like every ship, has problems that may render it unsuitable for naval service without extensive redesign and modifications (bye, bye budget!).  The Jan 2016 GAO report [2] noted,
 
The U.S. Navy, the Coast Guard’s independent test agent, completed initial testing for the National Security Cutter (NSC) in April 2014 and rated the NSC as operationally effective and suitable. Still, testing revealed 10 major deficiencies (some are shown in figure). Initial testing is an event designed to verify performance of critical systems to ensure assets are capable of meeting mission requirements. The event tests critical operational issues and key performance parameters. The NSC fully met 12 of 19 key performance parameters. Tests of one key performance parameter, as well as other critical systems, were deferred to follow-on testing. The Coast Guard and the U.S. Navy disagree on the NSC’s requirements for cutter boat operations. Without clear requirements the Navy and Coast Guard will not have a basis for determining actions to resolve any performance issues. Coast Guard officials acknowledged that clarifying these requirements would be beneficial.[2]
 
According to Coast Guard documentation, it may choose not to correct all deficiencies due to the cost of changes.[2]
 
During operations, the NSC has experienced performance issues that were not identified during initial testing, and the Coast Guard has planned design changes to some of the cutters’ equipment [ed. from an accompanying diagram, problem equipment includes CIWS, CIWS ammo hoist, engines, generators, boat, boat crane, 57mm gun, 57mm gun ammo hoist, TRS 3D radar, Nulka decoy launcher, and midships boat davit] …  However, the Coast Guard has not yet found the causes for problems affecting the NSC’s propulsion systems. As a result of these and other equipment failures, the NSC has been operating in a degraded condition in some mission areas. DHS has no plans for additional acquisition review boards for the NSC, which would provide oversight going forward.[2]

 
Discussion
 
The failure of the Constellation program presents an opportunity for the Navy to course-correct.  Assuming the NSC platform can be successfully adapted to meet naval combat and survivability standards at an affordable cost – no sure thing – the platform offers the ability to construct a small, focused vessel for the ASW frigate mission.    Instead of a bloated, overpriced, under armed, and unfocused ship with no defined purpose, the Navy has the chance to design a small, focused, affordable ASW-centric ship.  What the NSC does not offer is the ability to be a mini-Burke like the Constellation.  Whether the Navy will be wise enough to recognize this limitation and the opportunity it presents is an open question with an all too likely failed answer but time will tell.
 
 
 
_________________________________
 
[1]Breaking Defense, “Navy wants new frigate in 2028, says service’s acquisition head”, Justin Katz, 10-Dec-2025,
https://breakingdefense.com/2025/12/navy-wants-new-frigate-in-2028-says-services-acquisition-head/
 
[2]Government Accountability Office, “NATIONAL SECURITY CUTTER, Enhanced Oversight Needed to Ensure Problems Discovered during Testing and Operations Are Addressed”, Jan 2016, GAO-16-148,
https://www.gao.gov/assets/680/674924.pdf

37 comments:

  1. We're almost at the point of war time quickie shipbuilding. For all its faults, it's probably the best and quickest shot we got. Give it a decent gun (3in), VLS for ASROC/ ESSM, a CIWS and TT. Basic sensor suite for self-defense and a hull mounted sonar and VDS. No flight deck/hanger. CONOPS should be ASW / escort. Have three FFs paired with a Burke for a hunter killer/ escort squadron. The Burke provides command and control, AAW and aviation support. Just a thought.

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    1. "Just a thought."

      Not a bad thought. Better than the Navy's!

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  2. It is not to design a frigate based on whatever but same operations from many interests just like them did on the Constellation.

    Your Congressmen want local jobs plus pay his real bosses (who finance their careers).

    Many business interests want pieces of this pie. Best way is to add features to base design by saying if this doesn't have **** it would not #####

    The Constellation all over again!

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    1. You're putting way too much blame on Congress and industry. Congress does not design ships. They merely fund what the Navy requests. Industry does not conceptualize ships. They build what the Navy requests. The common denominator is the Navy.

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    2. Congressmen use funding as leverage to force Navy to add equipment built in their districts. Most people are exciting on new toys been added without think what this ship's missions are. Keep adding features will repeat the Constellation saga.

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    3. Congress has power to selectively funding on items than either prove or reject the whole project. It is a big problem.

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    4. Congress does not design ships or equipment and they have never, to the best of my recollection, specified ship's equipment beyond the "made in America" requirement. Certainly, Congress will vote for anything that brings manufacturing to their districts but that's a far cry from designing or spec'ing ships and equipment. Congress can only vote to fund or not fund what the Navy proposes. The closest Congress has come, in modern times, to dictating procurement is when they refuse to close out a specific weapon production such as the A-10 aircraft.

      Congress should be exerting their oversight responsibility more extensively but they don't. I'd love to see Congress dictate that the Navy build a small ASW corvette or return to building Forrestal size carriers!

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  3. What exactly is the mission of this warship? 'Frigate' is just a term, and an ill defined one in 2025 (were USN frigates actually Destroyer Escorts (DE) for convoys?).

    A lot of USN surface combatant woes seem to originate with confusion as to what the ship should actually do. I am dubious about the convoy escort mission as we have no ocean going convoys to escort. Surely we could buy large container ships from Japan or Korea at ~$200 million per copy, militarize them properly (RAS, aviation facilities, communications, weapons, etc.) and then employ them as amphibious cargo ships or even as escorts. Atlantic Conveyor is an example, albeit one that was mobilized too quickly and without the desired active/passive defense systems.

    GAB

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    1. "What exactly is the mission of this warship? "

      You've asked the key question and the Navy has no answer. They don't do CONOPS anymore. The Navy has substituted technologies for CONOPS. We no longer design ships to meet a mission/CONOPS. We now design ships to carry disparate technologies, the newer (or non-existent!), the better.

      In WWII, the General Board defined a ship's mission and, from that, generated the general specifications for the major equipment (propulsion, armor, weapons). We lack a General Board, today.

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    2. During my time period in the Navy ( 70s -80s), frigates were ASW mission centric ships. My last ship (Knox FF) we pretty much spent all time deployed and training doing ASW. We didnt ever spend time with carriers because all frigates then only had a flank speed of 28/30 kts max. Escort of amphib groups was normal though (same speed). Destroyers I was on though were carrier escort oriented (36kts), especially DDG (AAW).Best tin can duty I had was Turner Joy, all gun and TT. We spent all our time on the gun line for fire support missions. It seems that the NSC has about the same speed as the FF's of the past.

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  4. The Navy's strategy with frigate seems to amount to "we'll [somehow] do better this time". There is nothing about this that should inspire any confidence.

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    1. "we'll [somehow] do better this time"

      There is the potential for something significantly better but doing so would entail the Navy doing everything different than they have been and that seems vanishingly unlikely.

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  5. A lot of commentators have been asking for this. We shall see if getting what you want really is one of the great tragedies in life. My question is why this wasn't announced same time as the Constellation cancelation. Presumably these decisions were intertwined.

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    1. I wonder who made the decision. SecNav is not a professional warrior and would have no basis for making a decision. So, who recommended the NSC approach to him? Who has his ear? And whoever that is, what vision (meaning CONOPS/mission) do they see for a small Coast Guard ship converted to Navy use?

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  6. "That’s a frightening statement because I don’t know what it means. "

    Pretty sure that's just good ol' concurrency, yeah.
    Doomed from the start.

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  7. Pretty much agree with everything above.
    For starters, why? Why does the USN need this frigate?
    For what? what's it's purpose?

    USN still really isn't clear what it wants so yeah, Connie was starting to look like another repeat of LCS, repeat of Ford, repeat of the Zummies....but is NSC really that much better?
    I guess if USN keeps it to a minimum change to get hulls in the water fast, it could be "ok" BUT what are the odds of that happening?!? It appears to have all the problems the Connie had: small hull, needs to be designed to better higher standard, more "stuff" needed, etc so are we really better off?

    And even if USN does get it in the water fast, what's it's job? Show the flag? Fight pirates? Presence? It can't do high end work so it all has to be low end which is necessary but is that what USN needs now and the next 3 to 5 years? what about China/Taiwan, if that is what is pacing this, does a minimum change NSC contribute or not? The simple off the shelf version probably doesn't since it won't survive high end combat, even the minimum upgrade version probably doesn't either so why now and why rush it? Haven't seen anything about ASW/MCM capability, it's not designed for it from ground up so even if adapted, it will be nowhere near a full up designed ASW hull should be, it's at best a poor stop gap.

    I would almost prefer not to bother with FFX program and just buy more Burkes and get as many of them in the water than whatever this NSC comes out since it won't help any for China conflict.....

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    1. "NSC comes out since it won't help any for China conflict....."

      I understand your sentiment but I have to somewhat disagree. Properly modified (and it's highly questionable whether it could be sufficiently modified at an affordable cost), a small ASW/patrol vessel could prove quite useful conducting lower threat escort and patrol duties which would free up Burkes to go do front line combat stuff.

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  8. The genesis of this goes back to the 1970s. AEGIS changed everything and at a relatively low cost. The Ticonderoga class was quickly followed by the Burkes making frigates unnecessary and by comparison costly given capabilities. And that is still the case. The next program SC 21 was begun far too early for specious reasons. Then the USN second guessed itself on small combatants with the ill fated LCS concept. SC 21 culminating in the Zumwalt disaster. Suddenly a frigate program looked appealing. But the USN botched the deal. Worse a far too late Tico/Burke follow on has resulted in a less than desired outcome to date.
    I have no idea how or even IF the USN can recover from the self-inflicted debacles of the last 30 years.
    There certainly is no coherent strategy or visionary concept of operations to properly
    assess future combatant needs.
    How given this can a program be started with any hope of success?

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    1. "making frigates unnecessary and by comparison costly given capabilities."

      That depends on your definitions. Burkes make modern frigates, which are just mini-Burkes, unnecessary. However, a true, small, low cost, ASW frigate would be highly useful (I would say mandatory).

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  9. Quick question. If we assume (may be incorrectly) this new ship is to be more ASW focused, with the Burkes doing AAW, how quiet is th Hull for ASW?

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    1. Good question. The BD article stated USN would like to install a towed array so ASW is being somewhat considered but I think its going to be a sub par ASW ship since all the gear is add-ons. Haven't heard anything about hull quieting or dedicated ASW gear....kind of makes one wonder then why didn't USN just keep the regular off the shelf FREMM design if they wanted ASW?!?

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    2. "how quiet is the Hull for ASW?"

      The key question and I don't know the answer. ASW vessels are typically built with acoustic signature reduction affecting every aspect of design and construction including machinery isolation/rafting, hull shaping, prop cavitation suppression, Prairie/Masker, etc. Has the NSC been designed and built for that? I don't know but I suspect not and, if not, that would, in my mind, disqualify it for ASW work.

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  10. https://www.armyrecognition.com/news/navy-news/2025/u-s-navy-eyes-coast-guard-cutter-as-new-frigate-class-after-constellation-cancellation

    From this article is the following excerpt:

    Adapting the NSC into a Navy frigate would require careful decisions about combat system integration, because each added capability affects displacement, power margins, and overall ship balance. Industry concepts previously associated with NSC-based patrol frigates illustrate the range of possible modifications, from relatively limited changes to more extensive variants. One such concept, often referred to as Patrol Frigate 4921, was described as adding a 12-cell Mk 56 launcher for ESSM, upgrading the main gun to a 76 mm Super Rapid, integrating Harpoon launchers and a torpedo launcher, and modifying sonar arrangements to include a towed array. These additions were associated with a reduction in range from 12,000 to about 8,000 nautical miles, highlighting the tradeoffs between combat capability and endurance. For the US Navy, the challenge would be to define a stable configuration early, because reopening design decisions during construction would risk recreating the problems perceived with the Constellation-class.

    In addition, this is pretty much a useless, irrelevant, thought but I will type it anyway. Why wasn't the UK's Type 26 ASW frigate not selected for the FFG(X), well the FF program?

    https://www.armyrecognition.com/news/navy-news/2025/uk-and-norway-prepare-type-26-frigates-to-guard-cables-and-track-russian-subs-in-north-atlantic

    Just the armament alone is more along the lines of what the Navy needs:

    Type 26 is built around Sea Ceptor cells for local area air defense and a 24-cell Mk 41 vertical launcher designed to host next-generation cruise and anti-ship missiles, supported by a 127 mm Mk 45 gun for surface and naval gunfire support missions. Under the Lunna House framework, Royal Navy ships will standardize on Kongsberg’s Naval Strike Missile already in Norwegian service. This sea-skimming strike weapon combines stealth shaping with high subsonic performance, a range that can exceed 185 to 300 kilometers depending on variant, and a 120-kilogram programmable warhead guided by imaging infrared for terminal discrimination.

    Beneath the surface, the exercises will emphasize the Sting Ray lightweight torpedo, for which the agreement calls for deeper cooperation and harmonized stockpiles. Sting Ray Mod 1 is an electrically powered, pump jet-driven 324 millimeter weapon capable of reaching roughly 45 knots across an 8 to 11 kilometer engagement envelope. Its acoustic homing seeker is designed to counter both modern diesel electric and nuclear submarines, delivering a shaped charge designed to breach a pressure hull. The torpedo can be launched from frigates, Merlin helicopters, and fixed-wing maritime patrol aircraft, enabling a fully integrated UK-Norway training environment.

    Instead of the Sea Ceptor SAMs, the Navy substitutes the SM family and or the 4-pack of ESSMs which allow for more VL-ASROCS to be loaded, in place of the Stingray ASW torpedo, the Mark 54 LWT is substituted.

    Just my unqualified opinion.

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    1. Type 26 was not considered because it didn’t exist and, therefore, did not meet the parent requirement which, of course, the Navy immediately discarded once the selection was made.

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    2. As noted, the Type 26 was just a design concept at the time of the Constellation procurement competition and the Navy had specified that the winning design had to be an existing, operating ship (the parent design concept). One can certainly debate the merits of the parent design requirement but it's clear why the Type 26 was not eligible for consideration. Even today, there are no operational Type 26 ships. The lead ship, HMS Glasgow, is still building and not expected to be operational for another year or more.

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    3. It's certainly a hell of a lot closer to being completed than the Constellation is. May be, it's time the Navy creates a "clown" fleet. The Zumwalt's, the LCS, and now the Constellation.

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    4. "a lot closer to being completed than the Constellation is"

      Not really. Had we taken the Type 26 design and done to it what we did to the FREMM that was the supposed Constellation parent design, meaning altered its structure to increase compartmentation and survivability, change hull dimensions, changed all the internal layouts, re-spec'ed all the Type 26 equipment to US standards, and made never ending change orders, etc., it would be no closer to completion that the Constellation is now.

      Now, if we had taken the Type 26 and built it EXACTLY as it is/was designed for the UK at the time of contract award then, maybe, we'd be closer to completion. Of course, if we had built the FREMM EXACTLY as the parent was, we'd have already completed it, too.

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    5. The entire point of the parent design concept (whether you think it was a good idea or not (it wasn't!)) was to eliminate changes and built it quickly. Of course, the Navy abandoned that concept even before contract award and changed almost everything which took commonality with the parent design from 85% to <15% and then the Navy acts surprised that the cost ballooned and the schedule slipped badly. The only people in the world who didn't see this coming was the Navy. I predicted disaster from the very start just as I can already clearly see the beginnings of disaster with the NSC approach. Can the Navy salvage the NSC approach? Yes ... if they abandon every shipbuilding practice they have and do it right, instead. Will they? Not a snowball's chance in a hot place! Navy shipbuilding is so badly broken that they can't even recognize that it's broken despite the gargantuan mountain of evidence proving it.

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    6. Do you think that the Navy was aware of how much the FREMM design had to be modified/tailored to suit their needs? I never understood the FFG(X) program to begin with. Essentially, building a mini-Burke or Burke Light.

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    7. You've raised multiple issues. Why did/does the Navy want to build a mini-Burke? It's because they have no strategic plan to deal with China (War Plan Orange equivalent) so they have no idea what operations will be needed and without operational plans they can't identify what ship types/numbers are needed. So, they revert to the only thing that has been even a partial success in the last 45 yrs: the Burke. Instead of risking yet another failure of a shipbuilding program, they opt for the "safe" choice of a mini-Burke. Now, even that has failed. At this point, Navy leadership is so scared of failure that they're incapable of even imagining a fleet of anything other than Burkes or smaller Burkes.

      Did they know how much the FREMM had to modified? Well, they had complete access to the builder's plans and specs so ... yes. In fact, most people don't realize but the construction award was NOT for a FREMM which then got modified; it was for a modified FREMM from the start so, yes, they completely knew. The various DOT&E, GAO, etc. reports clearly document this. The Navy then took a bad situation and made it worse by continuing to make more modifications after contract award and reverting to concurrent redesign and construction which caused costs to skyrocket and schedules to implode. There's no situation so bad that the Navy can't make it worse!

      Does this clarify things for you?

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  11. The USN has got itself into a no win situation. US Industry is about capable of producing about 2 Burkes a year. There is no real evidence that rate can be improved without years of lead time and many Billions of $'s.
    2 Burkes a year supports a surface combatant force of somewhere between 75 and 80 vessels. Burkes have been in production since the later 1980's so very shortly the production rate of 2 vessels a year will just replace the retirement of early DDG 51 class vessels starting with Burke itself.
    There are no obvious replacements for the remaining Tico's within any credible time frame and no one is suggesting that the LCS is combat capable of anything.
    If something is not achieved and achieved quickly the USN will struggle to remain a one and a half ocean Navy (probably the Pacific and the East Med/Western Indian Ocean).
    To turn the NSC into a proxy frigate you would have to reduce it to single role (probably ASW with some self defense) and leave the rest of the vessel pretty much as is.
    Not a pretty prospect but there aren't to many options in view.

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    1. "without years of lead time"

      Correct. It took years of ever-shrinking construction orders to reduce industry to today's meager capacity and would take years of increased orders to regrow the capacity. That means we should start now!

      The problem is the Navy has gotten itself firmly wedded to a cycle of ever larger, more costly ships which means fewer ships and fewer ships means larger, more expensive ships which means fewer ships which means ...

      We need to break the cycle and start building smaller, cheaper, focused ships so that we can build more and grow our industrial capacity.

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  12. “To turn the NSC into a proxy frigate you would have to reduce it to single role (probably ASW with some self defense) and leave the rest of the vessel pretty much as is.”

    In WW2, Treasury class coastguard cutters were more than 5 times as successful at sinking U boats as USN destroyer escorts and they achieved that with ships 100 ft shorter than the current cutters. If the USN needs to enhance ASW, then converting the latest cutters for that purpose could make sense as long as it was one of a tiny number of changes. A USNI article suggests that adding a towed array to the cutters would not create huge difficulties for shipyards. The article also suggests that the current helicopters should be swapped for helicopters with dipping sonars. Would these changes be too much for the NSC?

    The article (https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2025/september/asw-should-be-coast-guard-mission-again) also mentions a WW2 cutter ramming a U boat, which made me wonder how many modern naval hills could cope with that.

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    1. "Treasury class coastguard cutters were more than 5 times as successful at sinking U boats as USN destroyer escorts"

      You're making a highly misleading statement. In one statistical measure, this is a technically true statement. The class achieved a kill rate of 0.57 per ship. HOWEVER, for the seven ship class that means a total wartime score of 4 sub kills (4 kills / 7 ships = 0.57 kills per ship) although I can only find documentation of three kills. In contrast, the destroyer escort USS England, DE-635, alone, scored 6 kills in a matter of days. Thus, DE's scored dozens of kills whereas the Treasury class scored a grand total of 4 kills. So, statistically the Treasury class rate was high but this is a function of there being only 7 ships in the class versus the hundreds of DE's that were built. The kill rate is merely an artifact of the small size of the class not any evidence of special ASW prowess of the class.

      I would also note that 1 of the 7 ships in class was sunk by a U-boat giving the class a sunk rate of 0.14, far worse than for DE's. Again, though, this is merely an artifact of the small size of the class not any evidence of unsuitability of the class.

      All that said, the Treasury class was a good ASW escort vessel, well suited to the purpose and the threat of the time period.

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    2. Change of helicopter shouldn't be a major issue - the Coast Guard's Jayhawk is a Seahawk variant.

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    3. "Change of helicopter shouldn't be a major issue - the Coast Guard's Jayhawk is a Seahawk variant."

      To the best of my limited knowledge, the Jayhawk is normally only operated from land. The NSC may be able to land a Jayhawk but does the ship have the hangar space, magazine, fuel storage, and machine shops to support a Jayhawk on an extended basis?

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