Monday, December 8, 2025

Our Navy For The China War

ComNavOps has discussed various aspects of what our naval force structure should be but it’s generally been in isolation rather than presented as a grand overview.  This has sometimes made it difficult for people who haven’t been following the blog closely to understand how the individual components relate and where they fit in the overall force structure.  I think it’s time to begin presenting the overall picture.  One way to do this is to examine the naval force structure we’ll need to fight China and win.  Of course, we lack an explicit military strategy which is what we really need to do a detailed analysis and presentation but we can still generate a pretty good picture just by looking at the typical types of naval operations that will be needed.
 
With that in mind, here are some of the naval operations that will be required in the China War and the specific force needed to meet those requirements.
 
Tomahawk Strikes – We will need massive, very long range, cruise missile strikes against Chinese bases, industrial facilities, etc.  The easiest and most survivable way to accomplish this is via submarine.  We need a moderate sized SSGN force.  The handful of Virginia Payload Module equipped Virginia class subs with their 40 cruise missiles is simply insufficient and inefficient compared to the 154 missiles carried by a single Ohio class SSGN.  It takes 4 Virginias to equal the missile load of a single Ohio SSGN.  Let’s recall that the Tomahawk strike on the Syrian airbase in response to the chemical weapon attack used 70+ missiles and was only a partial strike on a small, undefended base.  Any serious strike against any substantial, defended target is going to require hundreds of missiles.  Trying to mass and coordinate a dozen Virginias is much more difficult than using two or three Ohio SSGNs.  We simply must build more SSGNs.
 
We also need a new cruise missile.  The Tomahawk is old, slow, non-stealthy, and has limited capabilities.  The attrition rate among Tomahawks in a peer defended attack will be substantial which will require much greater numbers of missiles to achieve the desired result – numbers we don’t have in inventory.
 
Our surface ships will have to participate in Tomahawk strikes and the Burke is our only cruise missile shooter.  In order to get our Burkes into launch position, they will have to be escorted.  In a role reversal, the escorts will be carriers.  The carriers will provide the aircraft portion of a strong, layered defense in addition to the Burke’s own AAW capabilities.
 
Air Force Protection – The Air Force is going to be busy launching constant, very long range B-2/21 bomber strikes and will need protected air corridors to the extent possible.  Carriers will have to provide temporary, mobile, air superiority to create protected transit lanes.  This will require long range air superiority fighters with very large weapon loads.
 
Anti-Surface Superiority – The Navy will need to establish surface superiority – total domination, actually – to enable free movement of submarines, unhindered by enemy ASW forces, free movement of carrier forces, transport of supplies, at-sea fleet logistic support, etc.  Since carriers can’t be everywhere and will have higher priority tasks, this will require independent (independent of carrier support) surface groups tasked with eliminating Chinese surface forces and capable of operating, at least initially, with minimal or no air support.  These surface groups will need extensive organic small UAV capability for local situational awareness, a long range (200 miles or so), stealthy anti-ship cruise missile, and heavy naval guns for those close range, unanticipated naval encounters that are all too common in naval warfare.
 
ASW – Arguably, the most important aspect of our naval operations will be our submarine activities.  To do this successfully, we need to provide the maximum amount of ASW support.  We need to attack enemy subs and ASW assets at the source (factories, supplies, bases) and at sea, as they operate.  All of the source attacks will, of course, be on the Chinese mainland and all the operating attacks will be inside the first island chain.  We need to be able to penetrate the A2/AD zone, find those assets, and destroy them.  This leads back to a long range strike capability (Tomahawk or, ideally, a Tomahawk replacement) and the ability to operate near or inside the first island chain using surface groups.
 
Logistics Convoys – Resupply convoys from the US west coast will have to transit to Pearl Harbor and beyond and will require ASW/AAW escort.  A typical escort group should include small ASW corvettes and a single Burke AAW destroyer.
 
Air Superiority – The one absolute we count on, operationally, is that the Chinese will make a Taiwan invasion the initial action of any war.  Assuming we intend to contest that, a Guadalcanal-like battle will ensue with the Chinese invasion fleet on the west side of Taiwan and US naval forces on the east.  Carriers will provide the local air support over Taiwan and will attempt to establish air superiority over the island and the Chinese fleet – no easy task.  Again, this demands a pure air superiority fighter for our air wings.
 
Mine Warfare – The Chinese reportedly have hundreds of thousands of mines and we have no useful mine countermeasures capability.  Offensively, on our part, the Chinese are contained by the first island chain and should be bottled up by mining the relatively narrow passages out of the chain.  However, we have little to no useful mining capability as measured by the ability to lay thousands of mines in a very brief period of time.  A sub or airplane laying a couple dozen mines at a time is not combat-useful.
 
 
Conclusion
 
This is beginning to tell us what our fleet structure should look like and what kinds of weapons we need.  THIS … this is how you build a fleet – from an analysis of needs not a desire to pursue isolated technology for its own sake.
 
We can see what we need and now we need to look at our current force structure, see what’s useful, see what’s useless, see what’s missing, and recognize what we need to begin acquiring on an urgent basis.
 
So much of what we have, and are actively acquiring, has little or no use in a war with China.
 
Of note, what naval capabilities are conspicuous by their absence from the discussion?  That’s right … amphibious assaults and unmanned assets.  There is simply no strategic need for assaults and no tactical need for unmanned assets, at least at their current level of capability.
 
To summarize,
 
Not Needed: 
  • amphibious ships
  • F-35
  • F-18
  • Zumwalt
  • Ford
  • LCS
  • unmanned assets
 
Needed: 
  • new cruise missile
  • Simpler, cheaper aircraft carriers
  • new air superiority fighter
  • SSGNs
  • 8” gun ships / 16” battleships
  • new electronic warfare aircraft, both air-to-air and air-to-ground optimized
  • true destroyer
  • Burke replacement
  • mine countermeasure ships and equipment
 
There you have it … the naval force we should be procuring for the war with China.  It’s noteworthy that pretty much everything we currently have is not needed and everything we need is non-existent and, worse, we have no plans to develop/acquire any of the missing items.
 
So what is the Navy working to acquire?  Unmanned sail boats, a generic do-everything aircraft that will do nothing well, more Burkes, tiny cargo/landing vessels for the Marines, AI-powered everything, and more Fords.
 
I’ll put it as plainly as possible:  What we have, we don’t need and what we need, we don’t have.

95 comments:

  1. A step in the right direction is CENTCOM fielding its own Shaheed clone. At 35,000 dollars a pop, the LUCAS loitering munition is the 2nd cheapest weapon in the American arsenal, potentially giving us more options for the upcoming fight.

    Yes, it's cheap, slow, and has little in the way of stealth, but at 35 grand a pop, you can buy 57 of these for one Tomahawk. Quantity has a quality of its own.

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    1. The Marines are buying smaller Kamikaze drones at 70K a pop. We need to do better than either of these, and can.

      Delete
    2. There's a Chinese manufacturer claiming they can make a Shaheed clone for 10 grand, purely INS navigation. While it fits ComNavOps' call for cheap weapons, you gotta wonder how effective a slow deone ia going to be, beyond the obcious use as a saturation weapon.

      Note that the Banshee target drone shot down in Leonardo's DART demonstration is the same size as these Shaheed type weapons...

      Delete
    3. "wonder how effective a slow deone ia going to be, beyond the obcious use as a saturation weapon."

      That's like asking how effective a rifle is beyond its obvious use as a shooting weapon? The purpose of slow, cheap drones IS saturation attacks. There is nothing beyond that.

      Delete
  2. Something nobody is really talking about is that East Taiwan is all mountain and has no good space to unload cargo. All the Taiwanese ports are on the western coast, inside the strait, facing the chinese mainland.

    That's a gauntlet I wouldn't be keen on running.

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    1. "All the Taiwanese ports are on the western coast"

      Your statement is incorrect. Hualien and Taitung, for example, are ports on the eastern coast.

      Delete
    2. Yes, there are some ports on the eastern coast, but the problem is once we offload there, we're limited in the routes we have to getting our forces and supplies to where they need to be. As the other anon noted, much of East Taiwan is mountain, with roads that aren't really up to mass movement of troops and cargo.

      We might well have to accept that we'll need to cede western Taiwan to the Chinese, while we land at Hualien and push northeast to consolidate our forces at Taipei, and then push southwest to clear the island.

      Delete
    3. "limited in the routes ... might well have to accept that we'll need to cede western Taiwan"

      Good! Very good! You're beginning to think strategically. Now, in addition to describing the problems, perhaps you'd care to apply some strategic thinking and offer thoughts on how to achieve our goals in a Taiwan scenario?

      Do you have any actual idea of what the east/west transportation capabilities are? Tunnels? Roads? Taiwan has known this potential problem for years. I'd like to believe they've addressed it and have some answers. What do you think?

      As an historical example, NVietnam had no supply roads to the south and yet managed to transport supplies where needed. A little creative thought and effort goes a long way!

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    4. North Vietnam was using foot movement and livestock for transporting food, ammo and small arms, and had the advantage that the terrain was not so mountainous so as to be impassible. That's not really the case for Taiwan: there's a mountain road that cuts east-west, but this is a narrow winding passage with a lot of bends that's vulnerable to landslides and being blocked. The terrain is quite rough and difficult to pass, even on foot.

      The main highways are on the coast, which impose a fair detour of distance and time if you take the southwestern leading highway. The Northwestern route to Taipei from Hualien suffers the same problem to a lesser degree - at least it's a shorter drive!

      This is actually a scenario where I think the ACV or any other Army swimming APC has some merit: they self deploy onto the beach, get on land and live the rest of the war as an Army style APC, doing ground combat APC things, whike the ports are used to offload the tanks and other heavier vehicles.

      Delete
    5. "the terrain was not so mountainous so as to be impassible."

      Have you studied the terrain of Vietnam? Mountains, jungle, etc. Do you honestly believe that Taiwan has made no effort, whatsoever, to ensure the ability to transport supplies from east to west?

      Delete
    6. There are mountains and there are mountains. The route the Hanoi Express used did not involve needing troops to actually scale cliff faces.

      And yes, I don't think the Taiwanese military or government are really serious about invasion defense and hardening. Their reservist callups and training are a shitshow. They pursue presttige projects like LPDs instead of the bread and butter counter invasion weapons.

      Granted they have an underground airbase, but that's just one airbase, and the PLAAF will be able to surge air power for air supremacy.

      Delete
    7. Since you don't seem inclined to do your own research, I'll do a bit of it for you. From Google search,

      "Yes, there are tunnels through the mountains in Taiwan that connect the east coast to the west coast. The Hsuehshan Tunnel is the longest highway tunnel in Taiwan, located on National Freeway 5. It connects Taipei to Yilan County, significantly reducing travel time from over two hours to just under 30 minutes. This tunnel was constructed to enhance connectivity and balance development between the western and eastern coasts of Taiwan."

      At a quick glance, it appears there are several dozen tunnels in various locations and those are just the public ones. One supposes that there are military use tunnels that may or may not be public knowledge.

      I trust this ends this discussion.

      Delete
    8. The elephant in the room question is whether we SHOULD fight for Taiwan. Until we decide our stance and stick to it, all these hypotheticals are a little irrelevant.

      The chinese have been indoctrinating their kids since young to fight for their country. I teach kindergarden. We got expat mainlanders sending their kids here. This 6 year old tells me with full sincerity that she loves china and will die for her country.

      Do we have the same will to fight?

      Delete
    9. "Do we have the same will to fight?"

      With sufficient motivation ... of course we do.

      "whether we SHOULD fight for Taiwan."

      That is a geopolitical question more appropriate for other blogs.

      Delete
  3. I hope someone in the Pentagon is reading this. It may be moot however.

    I would rather be in China's strategic position than ours with its:

    industrial base(vs our ship-building anemia and fecklessness), it's clear commitment to its strategic objectives of retaking Taiwan (vs our "strategic ambiguity), it's stable of productive engineers(vs our gender studies graduates), it's logical procurement of the weapons required for the mission (vs our "gee-whiz" and "get what we need to secure my careerism" proclivities), and the almost insurmountable dollar purchasing power advantage of the Chinese currency (vs our impending//ongoing currency collapse buying frigates for 1.1 Billion $).

    Sad that it was all a choice on our part. It did not have to happen. We just needed to honor the sacrifice of our Grandparents and stay committed to the things that made our country successful. But no, we chose the Welfare State.

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    1. Re-reading my comment, I don't mean to be such a Negative Nancy. I recognize and hope that the inherent contradictions of Chinese Communism, with its attendant corruption, may save our bacon. But it's criminal that we need put our hopes in that, rather than our commitment to being Men of the West.

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    2. You clearly have no realistic assessment of the relative strengths and weaknesses of both countries. Until you actually study the issue(s) there is no point even discussing anything with you. Do yourself a favor and study the relative militaries, international trade situations in a wartime setting, actual educational output versus soundbites, resource availability, strength of allies, etc. before you comment again.

      Delete
  4. Just Another OpinionDecember 8, 2025 at 6:09 AM

    It would probably take us 15-20 years to procure this force in peacetime if the Navy recognized today that it needs these weapon systems to successfully stave off a Chinese invasion of Taiwan.

    It doesn’t seem like there will be much hope of that to me. The Navy of 2040 will probably be a mix of Burkes, Virginias, a few Columbias if we’re lucky, 4-5 Fords, ~5 Nimitz, and some probably borderline useless unmanned ships plus auxiliary and support ships. Also some America class. Burkes will be the AAW/ASW platform. There will be no SSGNs. Most of the fighter aircraft will be F-35B/Cs and some legacy F/A-18E/Fs. Maybe several dozen 6th gen fighters if we’re lucky and the program isn’t cancelled.

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    1. Quite possibly true. Absolutely certain if no one offers a better path. That's what this blog does: offer a better path. You can join the creative thought and, in some small way, work toward a better future or you can resign yourself to the status quo and the future you just described. This blog gets read by many people in Navy leadership. Perhaps, just possibly, we can influence things for the better. Perhaps, just possibly, this blog's assessment of the Constellation helped prod the Navy to cancel the Constellation program before it became any bigger a mistake than it already was? I'll keep trying. Join me if you wish.

      Delete
    2. Just Another OpinionDecember 8, 2025 at 2:55 PM

      It’s difficult after watching endless failure that seems to be caused by structural problems (if it were personality driven, you’d think we’d have lucked out at this point with an occasional win).

      CGX canceled, Zumwalt 3 expensive ships with no real purpose, LCS, Constellation… if I were a betting man DDG(X) will end up being delayed and quite possibly canceled. And even if we manage to get a decent ship to production, which will be a pleasant surprise, it’s almost certainly going to be much more expensive than the Burke given the size and newer tech.

      We basically need Congress to treat the situation like a national emergency, industrial capacity needs to be expanded so we can field small and cheap ships with dedicated missions, build more Virginias, a new SSGN (or maybe convert newer Ohio SSBN instead of retiring them if feasible), and we need above all people who know what they are doing in senior leadership.

      Delete
    3. Just another opinionDecember 8, 2025 at 3:00 PM

      And as you and others have pointed out on top of that, we need clean sheet fighter designs, new missile designs, expanded missile inventories, minesweepers, etc.

      Would truly be a miracle if we got 70% of the list fulfilled by the 2040s.

      Delete
  5. Logistics is key. It doesn't matter what ships and aircraft we have if there is no fuel. Closing Hawaii Red Hill was a disaster. See my blog entry https://stateofthenationnow.blogspot.com/2025/12/navy-matters-our-navy-for-china-war.html

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    1. A very nice piece. The wargame series it cites, if I am identifying the correct one, has some serious oversights and flawed assumptions, as I recall, and would be well worth deeper discussion in some other forum.

      "If the ComNavOps analysis has a fatal flaw, it's the superficial treatment of logistics"

      A minor quibble ... I'm well aware of the vital place logistics has in any conflict. I'm also well aware of the severe constraints of a blog post: several paragraphs to work with. Thus, any superficial treatment is not an oversight, it's a space constraint. I can only talk about a single, narrow aspect of any topic. There are always much more to any topic I present but space (and attention spans!) precludes an all-inclusive exposition. Fortunately, your article addresses the shortcoming! And, you're quite right that closing Red Hill without suitable replacement was a disaster. China won a major battle without ever firing a shot!

      Delete
    2. Just so you understand, a blog of this nature must appeal to a fairly broad audience. Logistics, however vitally important, appeals to a fairly narrow segment of the audience. Thus, while I attempt to acknowledge the importance of logistics, I tend to use the limited paragraphs to address the aspects that have broader appeal. This, by definition, makes it a blog post as opposed to an in-depth, scholarly examination of a Taiwan scenario!

      If you have a logistics topic that you feel is being neglected and would be of general interest, I sincerely invite you to author a guest post. Let me know if you have any interest!

      For example, what alternatives are there to Red Hill? Could Red Hill be re-established on another Pacific island? Would a major fuel depot on Guam be too vulnerable? The issues with a major fuel depot in Japan? How to defend a fuel depot, any depot, in time of war? Is it even possible to successfully defend a major fuel depot? Assuming we go to war with China before they occupy the entire Pacific, how much fuel would we need for the limited Taiwan and South China Sea scenarios given our fairly limited naval forces? Are there any potential depot sites in the IndoChina area? And so on ...

      Delete
    3. I've looked at the alternatives, and nothing looks good. Shortage of refining capacity on the west coast is key.

      Delete
  6. #1 A large missile inventory in the region. We need a dispersed naval magazine in the Marshal Islands and ideally one in eastern Australia.

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  7. Unfortunately, not just industry strength, China's technology capabilities have surpassed US in many fields, especially in military. To catch up with, it takes time, hard work, and patient.

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    1. Take example of cruise missiles, China has subsonic, supersonic, and hypersonic models but US only has subsonic ones now. Range is only one factor but ability to break enemies' defense is another important factor against tech giant like China.

      After YJ-19 displayed in last September's parade, Chinese state TV followed up saying it can be launched by submarine. Google the web and you can find YJ-19 is a powered hypersonic missile (not gliding one like DF-17 or YJ-17). Likely (no official announcement yet), it uses scram jet. With ultra-high speed, a submarine can launch it against a carrier far away without need mid-course guidance thus can hit and leave (no need to run).

      Delete
    2. "China's technology capabilities have surpassed US in many fields, especially in military."

      In some areas, perhaps. As a blanket statement, it's incorrect. For starters, we lack detailed technological assessments of both the US and Chinese military technologies, especially the Chinese since they publish nothing but positive propaganda. For example, as best I can tell, our submarine technology far surpasses China's.

      There's a reason why the Chinese constantly try to steal our technology secrets.

      Delete
    3. "China has subsonic, supersonic, and hypersonic models but US only has subsonic"

      That has nothing to do with technological superiority. That's just a [unwise?] procurement decision by the US to limit its inventory. The US had supersonic missiles long before China.

      "Chinese state TV followed up saying"

      The Chinese govt can say anything they want. That doesn't make it true. Look at all the claims we've made about the LCS, Zumwalt, Ford, F-35, etc. that have proven false. If there were no one and no reports to dispute it, we'd think we have the most incredible weapons ever conceived. The Chinese are not magicians. Guaranteed they have their share of failures and shortcomings. We just don't here about them and then foolish people believe the claims.

      This is not a Chinese propaganda site so tread carefully.

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    4. "The US had supersonic missiles long before China."

      I think this person only talks cruise missiles. Almost all ballistic missiles' maximum speed far exceed sound.

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    5. "I think this person only talks cruise missiles."

      The US fielded the AGM-28 Hound Dog cruise missile which had a speed of Mach 2.1 in 1959 so, as I stated, the US had supersonic cruise missiles long before China.

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    6. "... The US had supersonic cruise missiles long before China."

      And does the US STILL HAVE supersonic cruise missiles IN SERVICE? If so, how much time and money will we need to REPLACE these missiles, once they're are expended in combat?

      You should focus on answering THESE questions, our adversaries are undoubtedly are. What's the point of mentioning the Hound Dog, when these missiles were all RETIRED and SCRAPPED in the 1970s?

      Delete
    7. You're attempting to portray the US as being technologically behind and, with perhaps a few exceptions, that's simply not true. Supersonic cruise missiles are an example. The US had them many decades ago, long before China. The US has simply chosen not procure supersonic cruise missiles. One can debate that procurement decision but it is not due to any technological inferiority as you seem to be implying.

      "You should focus on answering THESE questions"

      If you've read the blog for any length of time, you know that I've repeatedly called for supersonic cruise missiles.

      Delete
  8. Add a large number of small surface combatants in the 2,500 to 4,000 ton range for ASW and convoy escorts to your list. None should have Littoral in their designation.

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    1. There are many things that could be added to the list. It was not meant to be all-inclusive!

      Delete
  9. "Burke replacement"

    There is DDG(X) program but not just us, even Pentagon has no idea what it will be. Too many people have way too many thoughts plus way too many want pieces of this pie.

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    1. This is why we supposedly have PROFESSIONAL warriors - people who study warfare and CAN predict what is needed for future battles. Unfortunately, our so-called professional warriors are incompetent jokes and so we have no idea what's needed. Of course, all they have to do is read this blog and then they'll know. I've done the thinking for them!

      Delete
  10. Great post. Though I don't understand why anti-surface superiority should be surface combattants. Wouldn't submarines be a better choice ?
    How many long distance missiles do you think will be needed ? A SSGN will launch 154 missiles per week and a destroyer / cruiser around 20-40 per week, as they need time to go back to base for refurbishment.
    What would be the capabilities of the Air Force B1-2 ? Could they be supplemented by converted civilian jets

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    1. "don't understand why anti-surface superiority should be surface combattants. "

      It can be anything that works. I've got a handful of paragraphs to work with so I can't write an all-encompassing battle plan.

      "How many long distance missiles do you think will be needed ?"

      A gazillion.

      "Could they be supplemented by converted civilian jets"

      You're asking whether very large, very slow, non-stealthy platforms can be useful in combat? I think you can answer that for yourself.

      Delete
  11. Actually, if you want to prepare against a hypothetical invasion of Taiwan by China in the near future (Xi said 2027), the only possible thing to do is to boost enormously the production of missiles and adapt relatively cheap delivery mechanisms such as container ships and commercial airliners, plus possibly mobile ground launched containers but that depends of the Taiwanese. And I'd free the Burkes ... etc. for pure AAW alongside the carriers.

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    1. "the only possible thing to do is to boost enormously the production of missiles"

      That's far too simplistic. Warfare will involve economic/financial combat, cyber warfare, space, trade, resource availability, logistics, and a thousand other factors. Sure, missiles will help but that's hardly the total solution.

      "adapt relatively cheap delivery mechanisms such as container ships and commercial airliners,"

      I assume you aren't serious about that.

      Delete
    2. Given the track record of the US Navy, if your goal is to field an ideal fleet in 50 years ie. 2075, you may be right. If your goal is to defend Taiwan by 2027/30 you won't be able to get a lot more of AAW / ASW / submarines (SSGN or SSN) than today. The only possibility is to adapt commercial ships / aircrafts, relatively cheap thus expandable, to launch a gazillion of missiles, and which won't have to come closer than 500 miles from the first islands chain and thus should be relatively easy to protect from PLA aircrafts, ships and submarines.

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    3. Blowing up insignificant first island chain installations or illegal artificial island bases accomplishes nothing. Bear in mind that you can only fire missiles from 500-1000 miles if you have targeting which requires up close presence. Do you really think China will just passively allow us to launch missiles endlessly? They'll patrol hundreds of miles into the Pacific and civilian platforms are painfully easy to find. Once China lands on Taiwan, no amount of missiles will dislodge them. That requires a ground force and a blockade on resupply (targeting, again). A million mile missile is useless with horizon range targeting. You're not thinking any of this through.

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    4. OK, 500miles from PLA AAW and ASW installations, not necessarily 1st island chain since it includes Taiwan and Japan and as such is not really PLA's defense boundary. That should give the commercial ships / airliners some protection. Anyway since the US Navy is not capable to field your "ideal" fleet for many many years, what is the alternative ?

      Delete
    5. "That should give the commercial ships / airliners some protection."

      You seem not to have a grasp of the range of modern warfare or the targeting requirement. I don't know what else to say other than try to come up to speed.

      " what is the alternative ?"

      Delete
    6. Previous said 2026 now 2027. Biden asked Xi before on 2026 and Xi said no such plan.

      If you were Chinese leader, would you lock you down in a date? or be prepared and look. Once opportunities come, act accordingly? especially you have so many new toys?

      Delete
    7. "Xi said no such plan."

      Well ... I've never known China to lie. LOL

      Delete
  12. The US and Taiwan need a lot of sea mines: not just defensive mines, but large mines designed to destroy commercial ships.

    GAB

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    1. Spot on! The challenge is delivery/placement. Assuming mines can't be laid until the beginning of hostilities, mine delivery becomes problematic. For example, there are very few ways to survivably and effectively lay sufficient numbers of mines in the Taiwan strait. In surrounding areas such as the IndoChina region and the along the first island chain the task becomes somewhat easier though still challenging.

      Our current fantasy of small, unmanned submersibles laying mines is pure delusion. Effective minefields require mines in the thousands or tens of thousands. Yes, there may be smaller areas and chokepoints that could be effectively mined with a few hundred mines (still well beyond any unmanned capacity!) but those are limited and likely to be heavily patrolled and defended.

      Delivery is the key and the US is ignoring this.

      Delete
    2. Taiwan should consider modifying commercial airliners for dropping mines (e.g. consider 'military' features of the MD DC-9 and Boeing 727). The point is not simply to inflict casualties, but to complicate PLA /PLAN planning. Small defensive anti-landing craft and anti-tank mine dispensers like Volcano are old technology from the cold war.

      GAB

      Delete
  13. You're assuming that this stays a conventional war. My opinion is that this kind of scenario is unrealistic- if it reaches the point where the US is bombing deep inside China, and China is shooting back at US carriers- things would be so unstable that it would not stay conventional. There would be strong incentives on both sides to use nukes. China might detonate one in the empty ocean as a warning, hoping that it convinces the US to stay out. Or they could detonate one in the atmosphere above Taiwan, using an EMP to knock out communications. Or they could simply nuke any port facility that the US has nearby, forcing us to stretch our logistics chain across the entire Pacific. I don't think they could actually hit a carrier with a nuke, but of course that's a scenario that also must be considered.

    On the other hand, the US still has massive dominance in nukes, both in numbers and in quality. We're also making some groundbreaking advances in missile defense. We should lean on that. Our model should be the cold war- the USSR had much larger numbers of conventional weapons, but they were always kept in check by NATO's advantage in nuclear weapons.

    I humbly suggest that the navy plans with that as its model. It will never be able to match China in raw numbers of missiles or ships, but one tactical nuke does far more damage than even 1000 conventional missiles. That would imply that more of our "conventional" ships and boats should be equipped with at least one tactical nuke.

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    1. You have the common "chicken little" complex in that you are terrified of China using nuclear weapons and, therefore, we are helpless to take any aggressive actions for fear of escalation while, utterly illogically, assuming China has no fear or hesitation whatsoever to do so. China has as much to lose in a nuclear war as we do so why would you assume a war would instantly go nuclear? Nuclear war is guaranteed suicide for China's ruling class and that's the last thing they want. No dictator wants to die. They all prefer to run off to a friendly country with their wealth, if worse comes to worse.

      I'll never understand this illogical, one-sided fear.

      Delete
    2. That's literally the opposite of what I wrote. Im saying the US should embrace nukes as our most powerful weapon, and plan accordingly. We never signed that international "no first use" treaty, and for good reason. We should plan to be the ones who use nukes first (in a tactical way).

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    3. "We should plan to be the ones who use nukes first"

      Now that is insane.

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    4. How so? It's just another weapon in our arsenal.

      I'm not anon above, but I'd argue that refraining from using nuclear weapons is dereliction of duty. We have these weapons which we could use to devastating effect on our enemy, preserving the lives of American servicemen. NOT using them would be immoral.

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    5. Note that despite the atrophy of our nuclear arsenal, we still have at least a 9 to 1 advantage in warheads over the Chinese, who're estimated to have around 600 warheads vs our 5000 estimated warheads.

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    6. I think I'll try to answer why using nukes first would be insane: it will make us look like the evil aggressors as we (the United States) is a free country it will trigger protests and will give the enemy an advantage in psychological warfare against our (the United States). An recent example is all the dock workers who are refusing to unload for Israel below:

      To oppose the Israeli state's recent attack on a ship carrying humanitarian aid to Palestine, community and labor activists have successfully prevented the unloading of an Israel ship at the Port of San Francisco. The city's dockworkers--long known for their militancy--refused to cross the picket lines.

      https://libcom.org/article/israeli-ship-blockaded-san-francisco-dockworkers-refuse-cross-picket

      https://www.business-humanrights.org/en/latest-news/ports-shipping-weapons-to-israel-blocked-by-dockworkers-and-protestors-from-barcelona-to-oakland/


      Note this is just an example not to be for or against Israel in any way as I know this is not a political site;)

      But just imagine the psychological war headlines as the United States respect the freedom of speech and thus if we use nukes first China and China sympathizing agents will use the internet like against Israel above for example.

      Unlike in an authoritarian nation (despite what extremists claims) the United States can not start shooting and killing anyone who refuses.

      Now with that out of the way, the United States should try to provide the E-2 Hawkeyes requested by Taiwan as it will give Taiwan and by extension our own forces better sensors to undo below:

      During a visit to the U.S., Taiwan’s Deputy Minister of National Defense, Bai Honghui, presented a list of defense equipment Taiwan needs to American officials, as part of ongoing U.S. pressure to increase defense spending.

      Despite the increase in defense spending, the deputy minister received a refusal regarding the potential sale of certain types of weapons from the list to Taiwan.

      According to the publication, the U.S. side stated that some of the weapons did not align with the concept of asymmetric combat forces, and therefore, the U.S. would not support Taiwan in acquiring those weapons and equipment.

      https://militarnyi.com/en/news/us-denies-taiwan-sale-of-helicopters-and-e-2d-hawkeye-aew-aircraft/

      The United States has declined to provide Taiwan with MH-60R SEAHAWK helicopters and E-2D all-weather tactical airborne early warning aircraft.

      To show we are serious and as a psychological boost the United States should sell to Taiwan all Taiwan asked for even including the F-35 which China probably has intelligence for. After all if the United States are going to sell a downgraded version to Saudi Arabia as shown below I am sure we can sent some to Taiwan as well as have a source for spare parts for our own fleet when the war starts as I am sure they will likely use the same missiles.

      https://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2025/11/20/759190/US-to-sell-downgraded-F-35s-to-Saudi-Arabia,-maintaining-Israel%E2%80%99s-military-superiority

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    7. I think that instead of limiting what Taiwan can buy we should sell them all they ask for both to boost our own weapons production and to have a ready supply of spares and reloads ready as I am sure if Taiwan orders below they need a supply of spares and weapons to go with it downgraded or not.

      https://en.clickpetroleoegas.com.br/Sale-of-downgraded-F-35s-as-the-US-balances-Saudi-Arabia-and-Israel-in-the-Middle-East-sima00/

      Also the United States and in the United States the freedom of speech is mostly protected for better or worse. Thus if the United States is the one to use nukes first it will provide a psychological advantage for China to both strike back and to try to convince our population to not cooperate. Unlike in an authoritarian nation the United States can not just force people and kill them if they do not do what is needed and may even get our leaders impeached (and lose elections) if we do use nukes first due to the fallout both literally and figuratively.

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    8. Now if China use nukes first it will be a different story if we can prove it thus why the United States should sell Taiwan E-2 Hawkeyes (I think refusing to do so is a mistake that should be corrected) and lots of them to have sensor data to prove China launched nukes first as I would hope Taiwan would send them into the air and operating once once China start attacking:

      https://defensemirror.com/news/39379/U_S__Declines_Taiwan___s_Request_for_MH_60R_Helicopters__E_2D_Radar_Aircraft

      So sensor data from the E-2D Radar aircraft should prove it was indeed China who use nukes first and thus, once given to the news media and widely spread, would give us the "moral high ground" to nuke back and then, and only then, the United States can use the full nuclear arsenal to the fullest should the United States choose to.


      Delete
    9. That or make Taiwan buy the same E-7 Wedgetail as the U.S. Air Force to save below from cancellation and for both the U.S. Air Force and for Taiwan:

      https://www.twz.com/air/e-7-wedgetail-radar-jet-program-cancellation-reversal-advances-in-congress

      https://www.airandspaceforces.com/congress-save-e-7-wedgetail-new-ndaa/

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    10. "United States should sell to Taiwan all Taiwan asked for"

      Do you understand that the US frequently declines to sell certain assets to allies due to security concerns? I don't know the details regarding any specific proposed sale - nor do you - but there are often perfectly valid reasons for denying a sale.

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    11. "refusal to help"

      Comment deleted. This is not a political blog.

      Delete
    12. "thus why the United States should sell Taiwan E-2 Hawkeyes"

      E-2's are hardly required to prove who used nuclear weapons. That aside, in a war, a Taiwan E-2 would have a lifespan of minutes. They would be of little or no use to Taiwan. You need to understand that large, slow, non-stealthy aircraft are not survivable in the modern aerial battlefield.

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    13. "E-7 Wedgetail"

      Again, large, slow, non-stealthy aircraft are non-survivable. This is one [very good] reason the Air Force wants to cancel them. They would be of no use to Taiwan.

      Delete
    14. There's a RAND study from over a decade ago, where they argue that in order to better suppress the PLAAF from operating over Taiwan, Taiwan would be better served by purchasing dispersed mobile radars and SAMs, rather than ordering AEW aircraft and more fighters.

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    15. Sounds like we need to bring back the Northrop Tacit Blue to replace the E-7 Wedgetail:

      Several unusual aircraft have been developed over the years (just look at the McDonnell XF-85 Goblin), but few were as unique in appearance as the Northrop Tacit Blue. The technology demonstrator was designed to show that low-observable stealth aircraft could conduct surveillance operations deep behind (or over) enemy lines, without being detected by radar.

      https://www.warhistoryonline.com/aircraft/northrop-tacit-blue.html

      The Northrop Tacit Blue is a technology demonstrator aircraft created to demonstrate that a low-observable stealth surveillance aircraft with a low-probability-of-intercept radar (LPIR) and other sensors could operate close to the forward line of battle with a high degree of survivability.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Tacit_Blue






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    16. " Taiwan would be better served by purchasing dispersed mobile radars and SAMs, rather than ordering AEW aircraft and more fighters."

      This seems eminently logical. An AEW/AWACS aircraft can't get far enough away from the battle to survive and still do its job. Many small, scattered sensor stations, distributed throughout the mountains, would seem a much more survivable and effective option.

      Delete
    17. It would be taking a leaf out of the Serb playbook during Allied Force. Yes, the Serb SAMs only shot down 2 aircraft, and Allied forces only got 2 Serb launchers, but the point of a dispersed AD network is to suppress the movements of the enemy air forces. A quarter of all sorties flown during Allied Force were SEAD missions. ISR and AEW aircraft had to stage further back out of SAM range, reducing their effectiveness. Strike sorties needed additional escort. It was also observed behaviour that if SAMs targeted a single aircraft in the flight, forcing it to jettison ordnance to make defensive evasive maneuvers, the rest of the flight would also do the same, because pilots are only human and they don't want to die.

      This is not a war winning tool by itself. But it helps the Taiwanese forces nonetheless.

      That said, it is also worth noting that the Serbs were able to disperse their AD net and play whack a mole with NATO forces because there was no ground engagement. If we were seeing a ground engagement things would have been quite different, because in a clash between Serb ground forces and NATO ground forces, NATO would be conducting CAS in support of their ground, at which point Serb commanders would be screaming for AD to protect them. That forces AD to stand and fight in defense of the ground forces, rather than operating as a constant threat in being, which puts AD assets at greater risk of destruction.

      But of what benefit is it to a man if he preserves his AD net, but gives up his ground forces?

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    18. There is only so much a dispersed AD net can do do suppress and blunt the effects of enemy air power. We have seen historically that when AD stands and fights, it is fixed in position, the enemy air force achieves local superiority, and the AD is wiped out in short order. Contrast the Iraqi AD net in ODS and OIF vs the Serb AD in Allied Force. Serb AD was playing peekaboo and being a threat in being, ala Tirpitz in the north; meanwhile the Iraqi AD was going out to fight coalition air.

      However, the AD may have no choice but to stand and fight, if it is necessary to defend the ground forces that are being engaged by enemy air. Likewise, the Russians have seen some sucess in using Shaheeds to bait Ukranian AD into unmasking, thus fixing them for follow on cruise missile strikes.

      Nevertheless, this does not mean that the effort is pointless, or that it is not worth doing. Warfare is play and counterplay. It's about creating opportunities by presenting the adversary with dilemas to address.

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    19. "because there was no ground engagement"

      There's much more to it than that. Not only was there no ground aspect, there was no real combat aspect and no real effort to destroy the anti-air weapons (goes back to the lack of ground effort). That "war" was not a war, it was a political display with messages delivered via aerial bombing. The number one mission for the air forces was avoidance of losses, not accomplishment of any combat mission.

      The Serb AD was utterly ineffective. Two kills out of ?50,000? sorties is vanishingly insignificant in combat. An AD system can only be effective if it stands and fights. Otherwise, it's an annoyance, at best.

      That said, a dispersed AD that will fight jointly can be effective. Jointly means with the aid of electronic warfare, fighter aircraft, naval forces to whatever extent, cruise missile attacks against enemy airfields, etc.

      Delete
    20. "only so much a dispersed AD net can do"

      As with any element of combat, success requires joint support, as I listed in a preceding comment. Had the Iraqis been able to support their AD with effective fighter aircraft support to counter attacking aircraft, cruise missile attacks on coalition airfields, possible ground attacks, electronic warfare, and kills of coalition AWACS and done so in an integrated fashion, the AD would have been effective - each aspect supporting the others. They were unable to do so and were quickly eliminated as a serious threat.

      As so often happens, we tend to view and discuss these matters in isolation instead of in the context of a joint, overall scenario. That's a bad habit on our parts and too often leads to erroneous conclusions.

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    21. One supposes that a Taiwan dispersed air defense (AD) system could be extremely effective and difficult to suppress by taking a page from the WWII Japanese island defenses and placing the AD weapons/sensors within mountain caves and tunnels. Very difficult to find and destroy!

      If Taiwan could develop an effective passive sensor detection and fire control system, it would be even more difficult to destroy since passive sensors can't be detected. Thus, the entire sensor side of the system would be nearly impervious to attack! The shooting side would appear, shoot, and retreat back into caves and tunnels.

      Just speculation on my part but it's hard to imagine that Taiwan hasn't done something along this line.

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    22. "An AD system can only be effective if it stands and fights. Otherwise, it's an annoyance, at best."

      I think you're being a little too strict with your definitions here. My perspective as a field-grade commander is that if the AD kills the aircraft, that's a great, but if they drive off the enemy aircraft, I'm also fine with that. It's like a machinegunner shooting at enemy troops: he suppresses them, keeping their heads down. They are not moving, they are not attacking, they are halted, which gives room for supporting arms to close with the enemy and defeat them, or for fires to destroy the fixed enemy.

      Operationally, on the ground, I'm fine with both outcomes (destroyed aircraft vs driven off aircraft), because the net result is that in the immediate timeframe, there is no longer enemy air. This now affords me a window in which I can act freely, and only need to worry about opposing ground.

      Aircraft destroyed = no enemy air right now.
      Aircraft forced to jettison weapons and go evasive = no enemy air right now.

      Of course the best case is if AD destroys enemy air, but it's fine for me if they just drive off and suppress the incoming attackers. I can still work with that. Some window is still a window.

      Of course, this was a lot easier for the Serbs to do in Allied Force because the bulk of strike packages were using laser-guided bombs and dumb bombs; it's been 30 years since then, and standoff PGMs are proliferating worldwide. As this article notes, the Chinese are likely to heavily rely on the use of standoff PGMs to attrit Taiwan's AD before moving in force:

      https://platform.opennuclear.org/thoughtroom/quick-takes/taiwans-air-and-missile-defence-part-4-long-range-sams-versus-pla-offensive-capabilities

      The whole article series is an interesting look at Taiwan's AD capability, but it's at bit too much to go over in this one post reply.

      Suffice it to say, AD has to be acting in concert with the ground force in order to effect results. AD's role, apart from protecting high value targets, is to make a window where the ground forces can act. They don't have to kill enemy air, they just have to suppress them and keep them from engaging friendly ground.

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    23. " if they drive off the enemy aircraft, I'm also fine with that."

      I think you're being a little too strict in your interpretation of "stand and fight". Of course a system that can drive off enemy aircraft is a success. HOWEVER, such a system CANNOT do so without, at a bare minimum, standing and radiating (more generically, "fighting"). An AD system that simply hides and only radiates once in a while when there is no great threat may survive but it is not standing and fighting and will be nothing more than a minor annoyance. The Serb example was unique in that the NATO forces main mission was not any combat objective but avoidance of aircraft losses. In a real war, an AD system that only occasionally "fights" is useless and enemy aircraft will be undeterred from mission completion.

      "Chinese are likely to heavily rely on the use of standoff PGMs to attrit Taiwan's AD before moving in force:"

      Without a doubt. However, unless the Taiwanese are fools, they will have an AD system built into the mountains to a large extent and mountain-sheltered assets are notoriously difficult to attrit, as combat history has repeatedly demonstrated.

      Delete
    24. "I think you're being a little too strict in your interpretation of "stand and fight". Of course a system that can drive off enemy aircraft is a success. HOWEVER, such a system CANNOT do so without, at a bare minimum, standing and radiating (more generically, "fighting")."

      I think we're actually mostly in agreement here, just getting tripped up over our definitions and differing cultural nuance.

      To clarify, when I say "stand and fight" I'm talking about the opposite of what our AD typically practices, which is a "shoot and scoot" approach much like artillery. The battery unmasks long enough for a launcher to complete a fire mission, flushing a specific number of missiles at the target, before immediately going silent and repositioning to avoid retaliatory SEAD efforts. In contrast, when I say stand and fight, the battery unmasks and stays in place, radiating and firing until they run out of ammo and are destroyed (or they drive off the attackers).

      The shoot and scoot approach has its weaknesses, of course, but it's the best compromise between protection of the ground force and survivability of the AD battery. However, as the other anon noted, it is of no benefit to preserve the AD net if the ground force is wiped out. Sometimes you really don't have the choice in the matter.

      Delete
  14. ASW……”operating attacks shall be within the first island chain.” As USA is unlikely to make a first strike in this scenario can it be assumed that Chinese nuclear attack subs will not set out prior to any strike with the aim of attempting to intercept carrier strike groups prior to reaching the first island chain with the aim of destroying the carriers and disrupting these groups.

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  15. Can only agree.

    This week I was reading about the E7 Wedgetail Congress is pushing through to prevent E7's cancellation and the E2D's from being used as an E3 replacement, and wondered- what would an EW aircraft built from the ground up look like? Instead of being a commercial airliner with nodes and sensors stuck on, it might have stealth outlines, spaces optimized for cabling, power plants, maybe stealth coating, and things way beyond my meagre knowledge. Improved loitering time simply by taking longer to detect, (maybe), and by being harder for missiles to lock onto

    Andrew

    ps: become Trump's Navy Sec please CNO.

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    Replies
    1. Every major Pentagon project has lots of constituents. If E-7 is cancelled, it is not just Boeing's problems but .... for example, jobs in certain Congressmen's districts, well connected subcontracts to Boeing (stocks your congressmen might have), certain unions, ... etc.

      Because of this complication, there is little room to discuss E-7 base on its merit - performance, cost, alternate, ... etc.

      Air Force is not satisfied with current E-7 which are only for exports. Its wedge shaped radar is far from Air Force's demand. This requires lots of money on R&D but delivery is uncertain. Therefore, use E-2D which Navy is happy with becomes a good stop gap choice than chase unknown E-7.

      The May 7 India-Pakistan air war told people a live lesson on BVR air battle. Do you trust Air Force's professional analysis or Congressmen, trade unions, business interests, .... who care more on their own interests.

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    2. AWACS can’t see surface hugging target beyond ~250 miles due to earth curvature. With advent of 250-miles( or beyond) air-to-air missiles, it will be a problem for these radar-emitting-slow-flying AWACS.

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    3. "For BVR"

      Comment deleted. We are not going to present unsubstantiated rumors and reports as fact.

      Delete
  16. An overlooked detrimental carrier double-pump deployment schedule is going to break the fleet. In any event they are deploying without an appropriate AD coordinator as well. Let us pray for NO war as the USN is ill equipped to prosecute one.

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    1. "In any event they are deploying without an appropriate AD coordinator as well."

      News to me. Give me a reference.

      Delete
  17. https://www.defenseone.com/technology/2025/12/congress-supports-bare-minimum-navys-f-xx-while-fully-backing-air-forces-f-47/410039/#:~:text=Congress%20is%20committing%20to%20only,Air%20Force's%20F%2D47%20fighter.
    "Congress is committing to only a fraction of the funding necessary for the Navy’s F/A-XX program in the latest version of the defense policy bill, while fully backing the development of the Air Force’s F-47 fighter ."
    In my opinion this acquisition will take some time to be achieved. In the meantime the carrier airwings will have aging super hornets and F35s with sub optimal availability. Also in my opinion the navy needs a carrier based manned tanker like the S3 Viking variant.

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    Replies
    1. You're stating the incredibly obvious. Do you have something of more substance to offer?

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    2. The carrier airwings will decline as the super hornets are retired. Suppose it takes 10 years for the F/A XX to be brought into the fleet. So will the navy choose more F35s to bring the airwing numbers up ?

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    3. I think the navy will add more F35s but they need an air superiority fighter as you stated , with longer range. The F/A XX is supposed to be stealthy

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  18. Replies
    1. But the navy uses the buddy system on super hornets for tanking

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  19. Sometime ago, I watched an online video talking Chinese weapon development philosophy - first forecast future US weapon developments then develop theirs able to counter them. For instance, forecast next US 6th gen fighter (F-47, etc.) would be , then develop their next gen radar, SAM, fighter, air to air missile, etc. able to counter this.

    I think that Pentagon should adopt this strategy in current and future weapon development. Focus on overcome current Chinese weapons will end up lag behind. There are many Chinese forecast on future US weapons (although most from civilian sites) but few actually forecasts on next gen Chinese weapons. The Sep. 3rd military parade shocked Pentagon but this should not happen again.

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  20. I read that the US Navy plans to have by 2028 a new frigate based on the Legend class Coast Guard Cutter - a 4600t design with one 57mm + one helicopter. Want to bet that there will be an extensive redesign and weight increase and cost explosion ?

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  21. https://www.twz.com/sea/u-s-navy-now-wants-a-new-frigate-and-fast. Remains to be seen what the CONOPS will be if any ! When the Legend class was proposed , I thought the navy indicated that the ship was not "navalized" enough ! Also will it be optimzed for ASW ?

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  22. Based on the past history of then navy, one could safely say no CONOPS

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  23. 8 inch gun ship. Maybe a quick solution to the retiring Tico's is a new cruiser based on an enlarged Burke hull. Flt 3 is already 10 ft more beam than a Tico. Design a new superstructure with the same sensor suite, engineering , ect. as the latest Burke. Two 8" guns, VLS, TT, CIWS systems (at least 4), hull mounted sonar and NO flight deck/hanger. The new CG would have a primary mission of surface strike / AAW and command. Is it a perfect fix, no but we would be able to get hulls in the water faster than a new built design, and we are basically out of time at this point.

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