Wednesday, November 26, 2025

Navy Cancels Constellation Frigate Class

You’re probably thinking this is a ComNavOps April Fool’s piece that somehow got misplaced on the calendar, right?  Well, it’s not. 
 
The Navy is walking away from the Constellation-class frigate program to focus on new classes of warships the service can build faster, Secretary of the Navy John Phelan announced Tuesday on social media.
 
Under the terms negotiated with shipbuilder Fincantieri Marinette Marine, the Wisconsin shipyard will continue to build Constellation (FFG-62) and Congress (FFG-63) but will cancel the next four planned warships.[1]

This is not exactly surprising.  ComNavOps has heavily criticized the Constellation program since day one and the evidence of failure has steadily accumulated since then.  The program should never have gotten this far.  That said, I do give the Navy some degree of credit for recognizing and terminating a failed program before it got totally out of hand.  How much better off would we be if the LCS had been cancelled after just two ships?
 
I have not seen an official explanation for the cancellation although reasons abound.  I doubt we’ll ever know the real reason.  So, lacking any definitive information, we’ll instead discuss the implications of the cancellation.
 
ASW, never a Navy point of emphasis, fades further into the background … out of sight, out of mind.  We now have no surface vessel that even pretends to do ASW except the Burkes and no sane commander will risk a multi-billion dollar vessel playing tag with a submarine.
 
Replacement options unfortunately include additional LCS (perhaps the modified Saudi versions?) and, most distressingly, some cockeyed, garbaged up “family” of unmanned craft.  The latter strikes me as exactly the kind of thing the Navy would do although either option, bad as they are, is more than plausible. 
 
There is also the question of whether the Constellation even needs to be replaced?  ComNavOps has opined that a frigate is about last on the list of the Navy’s needs.  If they did opt for a new design frigate, it should be just that: a new design and something along the Visby lines.
 
Orphans have now being created, just as has happened with Zumwalt and the F-35.  We’ll now have a mini-class of two ships that require their own dedicated supply, maintenance, training, and support pipelines and that never works out well.  It is almost certain that in a relatively short time frame, the Navy will declare the two ships too expensive to maintain and operate and will retire them early.  We seem to be early retiring a lot of ships, don’t we? 
 
CONOPS were never developed for the Constellation but even if they had, this now completely invalidates any concept of operations.  How do two ships fit into the fleet?  Where do two ships, dissimilar to the rest of the fleet and too small in number to have an impact, fit into the warfighting scheme?  The ships will not only be physical orphans, they’ll be operational orphans, much like the Zumwalts.  No commander will know what to do with them.
 
Trust between Congress, who holds the purse strings, and the Navy has never been lower and this is just going to make it even worse.  Congress has been extremely upset with the Navy for failures, lies, and deceit for several years now and, after being told by the Navy how vitally important the Constellation class was and after being assured that the “parent design” would eliminate all risk, Congress is going to be extremely skeptical and reluctant to fund whatever idiotic idea the Navy comes up with next.
 
Land facilities, as you recall, were built or being built to provide ashore testing and support for the class.  Obviously, they no longer serve a purpose.  Can they be repurposed into support for the next class or will they be abandoned … more of Congess’ (meaning us, the taxpayer) money lost to the Navy’s incompetence?
 
Accountability has never been a strong suit of the modern Navy.  Will SecDef Hegseth fire the people responsible for this debacle?  I doubt it.  He’s been a major disappointment.  This is yet another opportunity for him to truly change the culture of incompetence but I’ll be surprised if he does anything.
 
Battle Force structure is terribly out of whack, as we’ve discussed many times.  In WWII, we had a range of ships from the ultimate battleships and carriers all the way down to destroyer escorts.  We could tailor forces for the capability and risk we faced.  Today, we have only one class of surface ship, the Burke, and carriers.  There is no range from which we can select and tailor forces.  Any task we have, no matter how big or small, will be performed by a Burke/carrier.  This is how we wind up with Burkes chasing pirate skiffs.  The Constellations, poor a choice as they were, would have provided a degree of range.  Now … Burkes.
 
Goodbye


 
Conclusion
 
This has been a debacle, without a doubt.  The only saving grace is that it’s being stopped at two ships.  This was the program that would not, indeed could not, fail thanks to the Navy’s insistence on requiring a parent design (which they instantly abandoned and modified to a mere 15% commonality).  If the Navy couldn’t make a parent design approach work, what approach can they successfully execute?  The last successful surface ship the Navy built was the 1980’s Burke.  That’s forty years of subsequent failure.  If you were Congress, would you give the Navy any more money for anything?
 
The ripples of this failure will spread far and wide and last a long time.
 
 
 
____________________________
 
[1]USNI News website, “Navy Cancels Constellation-class Frigate Program, Considering New Small Surface Combatants”, Sam LaGrone, 25-Nov-2025,
https://news.usni.org/2025/11/25/navy-cancels-constellation-class-frigate-program-considering-new-small-surface-combatants

73 comments:

  1. I'm beyond irritated.

    I spoke with a naval engineer who had some exposure to the Constellation class, but whose main gig was doing work for Taiwan.

    He said basically the Taiwanese are focused due to the proximity of mainland China and thus have tight designs and demands and get hulls in the water. They might not be perfect but they are there, and they make iterative changes.

    The US Navy, however.... " They don't know what they want."

    Our shipyards are failing due to lack of infrastructure investment and the slow retirement of skilled trades and workforce.

    The Navy has seemingly *no idea* how to build ships anymore. The FREMM should have been a no brainer cheap way to get hulls in the water if they just didn't screw it up.

    But because they don't know what they want every bloody surface ship looks the same. High end Radar/VLS cells/kinda ASW/made to DO EVERYTHING SWISS ARMY KNIVES.

    God. The idea that we used to build the Fletcher class kills me.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "I'm beyond irritated."

      Well, given some of the unmanned, idiotic ideas floating around out there, I don't think you're going to like whatever the Navy comes up with next!

      Delete
    2. Nope. Waiting for the DDCGVN Helicarrier with railguns.

      Delete
    3. US Navy wants a ship can fight anywhere in any scale all over the world. Certainly, you cannot do so with a single class ship. You either build multiple ships for many possibilities or reduce number of theaters. However, once any make decision to withdraw from this/that, bunch ^%$#@! jump out saying these are vital to American interests.

      On the other hand, China is very focused. Their only goal is to push US military influences out off the First Island Chain. Use technologies developed, they build manned and unmanned ships/submarines to work together.

      Delete
    4. After won over the Cold War, ALL Navy ship building programs have these/those big problems, NONE can be deemed as mostly successful:

      1. LCS
      2. DDG-1000
      3. Columbia Class submarine
      4. Ford Class carrier
      5. Constellation Class

      Delete
  2. I must confess I considered your idea of firing all flag officers a bit extreme. I'm not so sure now. The amount of money wasted in canceled projects, Land / Air / Navy / Marines, is staggering.
    Concerning your projected fleet structure, will you update it to include a proposed tonnage / manpower requirement for the different class, and a comparison with China, class by class ?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "considered your idea of firing all flag officers a bit extreme."

      Extreme???! My original plan was to put 'em all in front of a firing squad and the court-martial their bodies, then hang 'em. Firing was my idea after I calmed down!

      Delete
    2. They won't even fire the Admirals responsible for this mess.

      Delete
    3. " Firing was my idea after I calmed down!"

      Firing is the right idea.



      Out of a cannon.



      Into the sun.

      Lutefisk

      Delete
    4. That's the crux of the issue. The Navy bureaucracy is broken. We look like me in middle school designing ships on graph paper. 'Oooh! And then it will have SPY! And VLS! And Harpoons! And ASROC! And ESSM!...'

      This also, I'm guessing, is partially on industry. When you are a defense contractor getting a bajillion dollar contract and not actually making anything is great for shareholders. Lobbying for people who will keep the status quo is totally worth it.

      At this point I think it's end game for the US Navy. I don't see a way out with the headwinds of politics, debt, and the Navy itself.

      Delete
  3. Will the navy consider a clean sheet design by following a CONOPS. ? Based on passed acquisition issues probably not !

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "probably not"

      ??? What gives you even that much confidence?

      Delete
    2. Do they even *HAVE* a conops for future builds, other than 'Everything'?

      Delete
    3. "conops ... Everything"

      Hey, how'd you get ahold of classified documents? That's supposed to be a secret!

      Delete
  4. If only somebody was building an ASW frigate with AEGIS integrated into the design and built around US weapons. Does anybody speak Canadian or Australian?

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    Replies
    1. "ASW frigate with AEGIS"

      Why would anyone possibly want an ASW frigate to have Aegis? You're doing exactly what the Navy does: gold plating a simple, basic ASW vessel.

      A frigate should never see any air threat other than inside the horizon. ESSM is more than enough and I'm not even sure that's needed. Multiple RAM mounts might be sufficient. If we're sending ASW frigates into a high aerial threat scenario then we're badly misusing them.

      Delete
    2. There's frigates and there's frigates. The Japanese Akizuki-class DDs and their sucessors are basically J-Eurofrigates with AESA AAW radars, because their job is to bodyguard the Aegis DDG - the DDG does area AAW, while the DD does local AAW, but this is a conops pursued because Japan is short on AAW ships.

      On the other hand, with how much ASBMs and ASCMs are proliferating, especially against the Chinese, who are capable of generating massed multi axis missile salvos against us, there is an argumebt being made that an AAW radar is the cost of doing business these days. (I'm not entirely convinced of that, though.)

      Delete
    3. "AAW radar is the cost of doing business these days."

      In a sense, yes. Obviously, any ship needs some sort of aerial target detection and fire control radar even if only for short range (RAM, decoys, etc.) self-defense. However, if you're suggesting that an advanced, powerful radar is required, I would think not. The cost, complexity, maintenance, utilities, and skilled technician requirements make it prohibitive. What's needed is a very clear understanding of the operational use (CONOPS) of smaller, limited ships. You don't put them in tasks that would expose them to swarms of missiles that would require advanced Aegis type radar systems or, if you do, you provide Aegis escorts for that very purpose.

      Consider the WII DE (today's frigate). It was either used in company with more powerful ships or it was used for lower threat tasks. If, on occasion, the enemy unexpectedly shows up in force around DE/frigates ... you lose (Leyte, for example).

      Trying to equip every ship to be capable of handling every conceivable threat is how you wind up with unaffordable ships and shrinking fleets.

      To be fair, you did express doubt about the idea. I'm just adding some substance to your doubt.

      Delete
    4. Weren't the Perrys tasked with local area AAW in their role as REFORGER convoy escorts? I can't imagine that requirement has appreciably changed in the last 40 years, especially when it's now easier for our adversaries to generate large missile salvos.

      Delete
    5. There are, conceptually, three layers of ship air defense: area (long) which is the long distance defense covering hundreds of miles, local (medium) which covers near threats of dozens of miles, and self (short) which is the ship itself. There is, obviously some overlap among the zones. The Perrys were intended to handle the local (medium) which would provide protection for, say, the ships closest to it in a convoy. Today, that zone is covered by ESSM, not Standard missiles, and does not require Aegis or a similar advanced radar. A simple, modern revolving radar is sufficient.

      Delete
    6. For all the flaws of the LCS, their radar fit and combat system, paired with ESSM, would be sufficient for the local air defense task that the Perrys held. An ASW frigate shouldn't be carrying a long range AAW radar, especially when it doesn't even have the magazine depth for long range AAW.

      Delete
    7. "their radar fit and combat system"

      The radars are fine. Their combat systems have some gaps and shortcomings. For example, the Mk110 57mm gun is not tied into the radar for fire control. However, that's "just" a software issue and should be correctable. Of course, the Zumwalt combat system also has flaws with its inability to interface/control missiles.

      Delete
    8. To clarify, I meant the COMBATSS-21 combat management system, which is derived from Aegis.

      Delete
    9. "COMBATSS-21"

      Yes, I understood that and that is the system that has the limitations I described.

      Delete
  5. RFI due December 15, 2025: To all vendors globally, please describe which Corvette to Frigate ships do you have in active production (bonus 1) for delivered in active duty)) (bonus 2) for meeting US Navy design standards).
    Concurrent RFI to all US shipyards or global vendors willing to create a US based shipyard: If selected pease commit to fully delivering ship 1 in 15 months from award; ship 2 & 3 24 months from award date; ships 4-12 at a 3 ships per year pace. US Navy agrees to zero change request on ships 1-12.

    US Navy procurement requirement: select the best available Corvette to Frigate size warship from RFI submission to deliver 12 ship class with zero change request. Then man them and put them in harm’s way.

    ReplyDelete
  6. No dispute that the Constellation Class had turned into a joke but starting again will ensure that fleet numbers at best stagnate into the middle term. More likely fleet numbers will decline as the LCS die before any replacements appear.
    To make matters worse the first of the Burkes reach 35 years of age next year. Most people appreciate that the flight 1 Burkes were only built for a life of 30 years. Clearly another disaster awaits.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. " but starting again will ensure that fleet numbers at best stagnate"

      This is true. You almost seem to be suggesting that it would have been better to continue with the program. We did this with the LCS and all it got us was a bunch of useless ships that are being early retired and a lot of wasted money and opportunity cost.

      Delete
    2. I am pointing out that the US Navy's strength will continue to decline. This was inevitable as soon as someone(s) decided to screw up the Constellation Class project.

      Delete
    3. "US Navy's strength will continue to decline"

      This trend started long before the Constellations came and went and will continue regardless. Had we built 20 Constellations, it would not have changed the trend. Until the Navy changes the mindset of fewer and more expensive ships, we will continue to see the fleet shrink.

      Delete
  7. at this point, It would be cheaper for the USN to just buy foreign built ships , and use US shipyards just to repair them / build and add modifications for them.

    Warship are about to become expensive targets due to drones. Much like tanks have (example- the Ukraine War)

    Times have changed , so has the tech and weaponry, and the US/USN has not caught up to this.

    Best to buy cheap foreign ships models and tack improvements, rather than building expensive boondoogle star ships like the LCS and Zunaklt and Fird class . before they know about where war/naval is going.

    Gee whiz, the USN currently has no minesweepers to speak of.
    Build or buy a whole class of them first

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "at this point, It would be cheaper for the USN to just buy foreign built ships"

      I think this misses the main point. The Constellation wasn't cancelled because of cost - at least, that wasn't the main reason, I don't think. It was cancelled because it was taking a stunningly long time to build (due to the constant and extensive modifications from the parent design) and offered little USEFUL capability. Buying a foreign ship won't solve the USEFULNESS issue. The Navy needs to start doing operational requirement studies and CONOPS prior to building. Once you've done that and assured yourself that what you acquire will actually have a useful purpose then I don't really care where they come from.

      Of course, if the Navy were to buy a ship from a foreign country, we'd require so many changes to accommodate our equipment, survivability standards, and whatnot that the cost and construction time would explode - exactly as happened with the Constellation.

      Buy foreign is a common call buy ignores all kinds of reality.

      Delete
    2. I trust the Swedes who are buying a new frigate. Just buy what they do but maybe require they be built in an American yard and ban the US Navy from involvement.

      https://breakingdefense.com/2025/11/sweden-to-pick-next-frigate-design-by-early-2026-working-on-globaleye-sale-to-france/

      Delete
    3. "Warship are about to become expensive targets due to drones."

      This is just silly. Drones, of the type you're thinking, are no threat at all to a warship for all the reasons repeatedly cited on this blog.

      "USN currently has no minesweepers to speak of.
      Build or buy a whole class of them first"

      Yes, however, to the best of my knowledge, there is no existing minesweeper anywhere in the world so that rules out buying something. It would be pointless to build a "minesweeper" until we develop a proven, effective sweep mechanism. For unfathomable reasons, the Navy has no interest in developing and realistically testing a sweep. There are a couple of sweep mechanisms in the world but the Navy seems to have no interest in acquiring a couple for test/development purposes.

      Delete
  8. I forgot - when I speak of "minesweepers" for approaching modern naval warfare , any minesweeper will also have to be a "drone sweeper". There be air drones , surface drones, and underwater drones. Not even the old US captor mines, are to close to what the naval drone and mine-warfare is heading for.

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    Replies
    1. You hugely overestimate the threat from drones. Let's start with the most obvious. Where will these swarms of relatively short range drones come from to be able to reach ships in the middle of the ocean? Any conceivable launch platform will be spotted and sunk long before it can be a threat.

      Delete
    2. True at the moment but we need to look ten years+ ahead, which admittedly is difficult!
      But we can assume that drone technology will advance in leaps and bounds and the range and lethality of a ‘drone’ in 2030/35 will be exponentially greater than the relatively primitive ‘first generation’ drones that we see being used so effectively in the ongoing conflict in Central Europe.
      Already we see the use of Russian ‘motherships’ extending the range of FPV drones out to 100 miles.
      And we see AI enabled drones distinguishing between Russian and Ukrainian troops through the differences in their camo uniforms.
      I don’t know where all this is going but one of our chief enemies is complacency.

      Delete
    3. "the range and lethality of a ‘drone’ in 2030/35 will be exponentially greater"

      Utterly irrelevant. Drones are the easiest target in the world and present absolutely no threat to a competent, prepared defender. If drones acquire speeds, payloads, and range to present a realistic threat to ships at sea then they've entered the realm of cruise missiles and we already have effective defenses against those (or we hope we do!). You're projecting a very unique Ukraine war situation to an open ocean naval war against highly competent peer defenders and that's an invalid projection. In fact, we've already seen just how little a threat drones are to a prepared defender with the US Navy/Houthi clash. Despite launching hundreds of drones, none got through, as far as we know, or even presented a serious threat.

      "extending the range of FPV drones out to 100 miles."

      Naval forces at sea, in a war, will be defending a thousand miles in all directions. One hundred miles is woefully insufficient to be effective.

      "And we see AI enabled drones distinguishing between Russian and Ukrainian troops through the differences in their camo uniforms.:

      The world already has cruise missiles that use image libraries to select targets and even aimpoints. This would be nothing new.

      A drone is just an incredibly slow, helpless, hopelessly vulnerable cruise missile! Viewed that way, drones are simply not a threat.

      Delete
    4. I think people are forgetting how powerful the radars on a Burke are. The PESA SPY-1 outputs enough power to brute force fry your average drone swarm.

      Delete
    5. "outputs enough power to brute force fry your average drone swarm."

      Do you have any evidence to support that statement?

      Delete
    6. If you watch YouTube channels like "Military Summary" you see the Russians launch hundreds of drones at Ukraine from hundreds of miles away several times a week.

      Delete
  9. So what should we do here ComNavOps?
    Design a new DDG from scratch and build them here in America as fast as we can?
    (We seem to have lost the ability to do that.)
    License build an overseas destroyer here in America? (And try to avoid the mistakes of the Constellation debacle.)
    Get some urgently needed hulls in the water by building in Japan or South Korea?
    (Need to change the laws first, but maybe we could lease them or something.)
    Throw our arms up in despair?
    Apologies if you’ve provided answers in a previous post.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Just Another OpinionNovember 28, 2025 at 3:21 AM

      I’d say we keep building Burkes, and accept that some of them will have to play tag with subs because on a short-term basis we have nothing else, then get several smaller foreign boats, 100% of those designs, and have the foreign firms build shipyards and train American workers and design teams so that maybe we can get some ship building skills back.

      Delete
    2. "So what should we do"

      I know you're asking what ship(s) we should build but that's the wrong question or, at least, the answer is not what you're looking for. What we should do is stop building EVERYTHING and figure out what we actually need. That means sit down and make a War Plan China (War Plan Orange). That will give us strategy which, in turn, will give us operations which, in turn will lead to tactics and from that we derive CONOPS which, at long last, leads us to actual ship designs/numbers. So, there's the real answer.

      To at least somewhat generally give you the answer you were looking for, look at the fleet structure page and you'll get an idea of the types of ships we're likely to need.

      Delete
    3. "have the foreign firms build shipyards and train American workers "

      You realize that we've already done exactly what you're calling for and it failed badly, right? The LCS was built by foreign builders who built factories in the US and lent their "expertise". You know how that turned out.

      You also recognize that foreign shipbuilding quality is highly suspect, right? I've documented enough examples on this blog to demonstrate that foreign quality is no better or worse than US. Korea and Japan are the only builders who might be superior and we just don't know because we have no reports on their quality.

      There are no useful MCM ships in the world so foreign purchase is out. I'm unaware of an effective "smallish" AAW foreign design. Feel free to offer an example. There may be an effective smallish ASW vessel but I'm not thinking of it off the top of my head. Again, feel free to nominate an example.

      Delete
    4. If we just stopped building warships until we’ve figured out what we need, or worked out a War Plan Orange, the shipyards would close down and all the skilled workers would go off and drive Ubers or something.

      Delete
    5. The best fit in my view would be the UK Type 26 ‘frigate’.
      These days everything is a frigate even if it’s got the displacement of a WW2 cruiser.
      The type 26 is a good all rounder but can be configured for AAW or ASW according to customer requirements and specifications.
      Construction is well advanced in the UK, Australia and Canada (not altogether without glitches) so most of the debugging work has been done.
      Unit cost is around $2.5 billion, so a good value fix for an urgent need.

      Delete
    6. Typo. Unit cost is around $1.5 billion.

      Delete
    7. Just Another OpinionNovember 29, 2025 at 4:44 AM

      $1.5 billion seems pretty expensive. Cheaper than a Burke, but still an expensive ship to send after subs.

      Definitely does not seem like a dedicated ASW platform, tons of AAW and ASuW capability. Mini Burke.

      Delete
    8. "the shipyards would close down and all the skilled workers would go off"

      Nope. What would happen is we would suddenly free up all the yard capacity and could start maintaining and upgrading the entire existing fleet - decades of built up, backlogged demand now able to be serviced. The yards and the workers would be even more in demand than now! Talk about win-win. The Navy pauses new construction to get their act together and the yards get endless, vital maintenance and upgrade work! The yards grow, the Navy readiness improves ... WIN!

      Delete
    9. "Good point!"

      Completely wrong. See the preceding comment.

      Delete
    10. "The type 26 is a good all rounder"

      That's a mini-Burke. Why do we want a mini-Burke? We have around 75 full Burkes.

      "Unit cost is around $1.5 billion."

      Do you think it's wise to use a $1.5B ship to play tag with submarines when the subs have all the advantages? Wouldn't it make more sense to use small, cheap, dedicated ASW corvettes for the bulk of ASW work?

      Delete
    11. "does not seem like a dedicated ASW platform, tons of AAW and ASuW capability. Mini Burke."

      You got it. A mini-Burke for nearly the same cost as a full Burke!

      Delete
    12. Perhaps we need to give up on ships. Think out of the box. I appreciate the skepticism about drones, but maybe something like a large number of "Super Heavy"MQ-4C Tritons able to maintain station for days, armed only for targets of opportunity after their own sensors are able to identify targets from 80k feet, backed up by P-8 to the rear loaded with additional offensive weapons could hold large swaths of ocean at bay. And a unit cost of 40 million might be way more affordable. They could fly back for refit and maintenance to safe rear areas. Their individual loss would not be so great, and human exposure would be minimized, and the technical challenge of shooting down a high flying, stealthy object like the Triton is severe, actually. For large target sets identified, land based bombers could be directed acutely. I imagine such a layered "detect, target, employ" system would be at least as effective as a failed Pentagon ship procurement execution. Ok....tear me up ComNavOps :)
      How well would the US Navy fare if the Chinese employed such a capability? Not well, I fear.

      Delete
    13. "Perhaps we need to give up on ships."

      I'm not sure where to even begin to comment. Setting aside the myriad problems with your concept as you've defined it, you've completely ignored the many other uses for ships such as transporting supplies, providing area air defense, ASW, convoy protection, land attack, and on and on.

      So, these Tritons/P-8s appear to be able to operate with near impunity despite not being stealthy, large, and slow? Who provides air defense for them?

      Just out of curiosity, are you aware of the current Triton cost?

      I'm going to leave it at that. This would not be a productive discussion.

      Delete
    14. If they wanted a true frigate (and I don't know if they do, your conops comments make so much sense) I was thinking today they'd be better off resurrecting the Knox class and just updating the systems it had. Boom. DE. Instead Every. Freaking. Surface Warfare vessel. ends up looking like a Tico or 'Burke variant with differing numbers of VLS.

      Delete
    15. "better off resurrecting the Knox class"

      ANY modern frigate is just a mini-Burke. If you look closely at the Knox class, they were intended to carry a bow sonar, a short range ASROC launcher, a couple lightweight torpedoes, and a DASH drone. That was the entire ASW fit. That's a huge ship for the minimal gear it carried. Later refits emphasized AAW. In short, the Knox class was not a good ASW vessel.

      Now, if you just mean that the hull dimensions would make a good starting point for a modern equipped ASW vessel then that might be valid. Personally, I'd try to make a Fletcher size hull into an ASW ship. With all the weapons that fit on a Fletcher, I've got to believe that we could put a very robust ASW fit on it.

      Delete
  10. Just Another OpinionNovember 28, 2025 at 3:18 AM

    Simply incredible.

    At this point, we should just take 100% euro designs and have the European firms build American shipyards and teach us how to build basic warships again. We probably won’t love the capability/survivability of these ships but at least it will put boats in the water and maybe serve as a stepping stone to something we’d really like to have in 15-20 years.

    Find the top smallish euro ships for AAW, ASW, and MCM respectively and order 20 of each. Once we’ve filled out the fleet we can try our hands at our own designs.

    The very last thing we should do is build any boat with new tech. We can’t even build a frigate, you’re telling me we can build a next gen unmanned ship?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You realize that we've already done exactly what you're calling for and it failed badly, right? The LCS was built by foreign builders who built factories in the US and lent their "expertise". You know how that turned out.

      You also recognize that foreign shipbuilding quality is highly suspect, right? I've documented enough examples on this blog to demonstrate that foreign quality is no better or worse than US. Korea and Japan are the only builders who might be superior and we just don't know because we have no reports on their quality.

      There are no useful MCM ships in the world so foreign purchase is out. I'm unaware of an effective "smallish" AAW foreign design. Feel free to offer an example. There may be an effective smallish ASW vessel but I'm not thinking of it off the top of my head. Again, feel free to nominate an example.

      Delete
    2. Just Another OpinionNovember 29, 2025 at 4:36 AM

      No disagreement on quality, I suppose my concern at this point is quantity and the continued failure of the Navy to field any new surface warship design.

      I’m sure you understand the various ships available far better than I do, if you say there are no good alternatives, I’ll take your word for it. It’s disconcerting that none of our dozens of allies can build decent smaller ships. Amazing that Japan, Korea, UK etc have extensive coastlines and maritime trade but no effective way to clear out mines. How do Korea and Japan survive economically against extensive mining?

      Delete
    3. "my concern at this point is quantity"

      So let's build 5,000 combat canoes. There's your quantity. What else are you concerned about?

      The point I made is that quantity without usefulness is pointless. We tried to build 55 LCS only to discover they had no useful purpose. We wanted to build twenty or thirty Zumwalt only to discover they had no useful purpose. We built a half dozen or so sea bases only to find they had no useful purpose.

      Quantity is not the issue, usefulness (meaning, combat effectiveness) is.

      Before you address quantity, ask and answer what the purpose is. That answer will tell you what type of ship(s) you need and in what quantity.

      As far as foreign ships, there are some good Burke and mini-Burke type ships around the world but we already have lots of those. We don't need more. We need true minesweepers (there aren't any in the world). We need a small ASW corvette (there are some but no standouts). We need a true Fletcher-ish destroyer (there aren't any). We need attack transports (there aren't any). We need drone carriers (there aren't any). We need large caliber naval gun ships (there aren't any). And so on.

      The wise naval observer doesn't say we need quantity, he says we need usefulness (combat effectiveness). Be wise!

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  11. Nothing profound to say here...but first step is to split the ASW and AAW roles in our ship designs.

    CNO has a good post here that features a really good concept for a dedicated AAW ship.
    https://navy-matters.blogspot.com/search/label/Atlanta%20Class

    For blue-water ASW, a pair of complementary ships.

    The first design would start by dusting off the blueprints for the Gearing class destroyer, 390 feet length and up to 4000 tons full load (with possibly an extra foot or two of beam to provide the buoyancy for the extra displacement) .
    Bow sonar, VDS, towed array, MK48 launchers and ASROC box launchers.
    Local air defense with ESSM in a twin-arm launcher, SeaRAM and CIWS.
    No helicopters, every ship doesn't need to have a helicopter.

    But some ships do need to provide them, and that would be the complementary ASW ship.
    Begin with something like a Mitscher-class destroyer, 490 feet and up to 5500 tons full load.
    The extra length and displacement would be to accommodate two to three ASW helicopters to prosecute contacts.
    It would also have bow sonar, VDS, towed array, MK-48 and ASROC and local AAW with a weapons suite like the Gearing based ship described above.

    These would work in 3-ship teams with two of the smaller ships matched with one of the larger helicopter ships and that team would take a section of ASW screen in a battle group.

    Those ships should be inexpensive enough to build in quantity.

    Lutefisk




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  12. In the flurry of online posts following the Connie cancelation, I did note that there were a few calls for a return to single purpose ships. That's somthing I strongly believe in, and it was refreshing to see it somewhere other than here.
    While we do need to take a step back, and develop a sound strategy first, which will then provide a CONOP for the fleet, and in turn ships which could then be designed and built... Even before we get there, we need to reshape the mentality of our shipbuilding. Even with a proper CONOP, the Navy is infinitely qualified to still screw up a design by multi-missioning and gold plating it to death. CNOs "minimum requirements" is somthing that needs to become a mantra within the design and building circles. "Less is more" has many different positive meanings in the combatant construction world, and it's long past time to shed our attachment to exquisite do-everything wonderweapons.

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    1. Well said.

      " reshape the mentality of our shipbuilding."

      Just to be clear, our main shipbuilding problem(s) lies with the Navy, not industry. Industry does what the Navy tells/pays them to do. The vast majority of the cost overruns, schedule delays, and quality issues are the fault of the Navy. This does not mean that industry has no problems but they are not the main culprit. To be fair, you made no such claim. I'm just kind of expanding on your comment to ensure that everyone knows where the bulk of the blame lies.

      "refreshing to see it somewhere other than here."

      I'd like to take credit for insightful, original thinking but all I'm doing is restating the lessons that we paid in blood to learn in WWII. Why supposedly intelligent people refuse to honor those lessons is a mystery to me but it denotes a crippling arrogance on the part of those who will not learn from history, that they believe they know better.

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  13. For relatively cheap ASW ship how about below from India?

    The Anti-Submarine Warfare Shallow Water Craft (ASW-SWC) is a class of anti-submarine warfare (ASW) water craft currently being built for the Indian Navy, by Cochin Shipyard (CSL) and Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers (GRSE). They were conceived as a replacement to the ageing Abhay-class corvettes of the Indian Navy, and are designed to undertake ASW duties — including subsurface surveillance in littoral waters, search-and-attack unit (SAU) missions and coordinated anti-submarine warfare operations with naval aircraft. They were also designed to provide secondary duties – including defense against intruding aircraft, minelaying and search-and-rescue (SAR).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Submarine_Warfare_Shallow_Water_Craft

    The Indian Navy commissioned INS Mahe (P80), the first of the indigenously designed and built Mahe-class Anti-Submarine Warfare Shallow Water Craft (ASW SWC), during a ceremony held at the Naval Dockyard, Mumbai, on November 24, 2025. Mahe was delivered to the Navy on October 23 by Cochin Shipyard Limited (CSL).

    https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2025/11/indian-navy-commissions-first-asw-craft-built-by-cochin-shipyard/

    https://www.asianmilitaryreview.com/2025/11/india-commissions-its-first-mahe-class-asw-swc-corvette-foc/

    https://www.marineinsight.com/shipping-news/indian-navy-unveils-crest-of-its-first-mahe-class-asw-vessel-ahead-of-commissioning/

    https://www.deccanherald.com/india/indian-navy-commissions-indigenous-anti-submarine-warfare-vessel-ins-mahe-3808195

    Maybe we can even get it cheap by using the Trump tariffs deals as leverage due to below:

    https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/only-matter-of-time-india-hopes-to-seal-first-tranche-of-us-trade-deal-by-year-end-urges-both-sides-to-find-right-landing-zone/articleshow/125636731.cms

    https://www.reuters.com/world/india/india-expects-us-trade-deal-by-year-end-senior-official-says-2025-11-28/

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    1. My apologies for not including added detail the comment se

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    2. ction will not allow me and when it does it turned out funky as right now.

      Ok the Indian relatively single purpose ASW ship is cheap compared to the Burke at below:

      US$2.2 billion per ship (FY2024)

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arleigh_Burke-class_destroyer

      With the Indian ASW ship at below for those who did not want to got to the links:


      ₹12,622 crore (equivalent to ₹150 billion or US$1.8 billion in 2023) for 16 ships (FY 2020)
      ₹789 crore (equivalent to ₹929 crore or US$110 million in 2023) per ship (FY 2020)

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    3. For weapons the Indian ASW ship includes below an added bonus in the form of the

      Anti-Submarine Warfare:
      1 × RBU-6000 anti-submarine rocket launche

      https://navy-matters.blogspot.com/2017/06/the-modern-hedgehog.html

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    4. I hadn't seen that vessel so thanks for the description and links. There is much to like about the design although it might be a bit small for open ocean work? Maybe, maybe not? I would add a RAM/SeaRAM mount and heavier torpedoes (not a fan of lightweight torpedoes). I assume it has extensive quieting of hull and acoustically isolated machinery. Not a fan of water jet propulsion. I would substitute podded motors/props.

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    5. You are welcome and thank you for keeping your blog up!

      For the newer readers (I am sure we all had been one of those), here is the pod propulsion post linked in case anyone wants to get any more details you can catch up to speed by following the link below:

      https://navy-matters.blogspot.com/2021/12/pod-propulsion.html

      For open ocean work we can always have motherships as ComNavOps once suggested below and I think they would be more effective than the LCS ever was:

      Commenters (and ComNavOps!) have often stated the desire for motherships in various roles. Most people view a mothership as a vessel that provides fuel, munitions, maintenance, and supplies for a group of otherwise short-legged vessels thereby allowing the smaller vessels to operate at greater distance from ports or operate for longer periods of time without returning to port. For example, a common suggestion is for a mothership to support squadrons of LCSs. Another example is a mothership to support small MCM assets.

      The mothership concept can be further extended. Not only can the mothership provide sustainment support for smaller vessels but it can also provide active combat capabilities that support and enhance the capabilities of the ships it’s supporting.

      For example, an ASW mothership and a group of ASW configured LCSs (assuming they ever get a functional ASW module!) can complement each other while acting as an ASW hunter-killer group.

      https://navy-matters.blogspot.com/2014/12/motherships.html

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    6. Just so you're aware, the LCS ASW module has been terminated. There will be no LCS ASW capability. With the cancellation of the Constellation class, the only surface ship ASW capability in the Navy is the Burke and no sane commander is going to send a $2.5B Burke to play tag with a submarine. In essence, we have no surface ASW capability.

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    7. What happened to the mine warfare module? The last of the Avenger class is retiring and some LCS showed up to replace them. I assume they just threw whatever mine stuff they could aboard and declared them a mine warfare ship.

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