Wednesday, April 12, 2023

What Have Our Carriers Done For Us?

A reader recently posed a ‘what if’ type of scenario in which aviation had never attained ascendency in the Navy.  Inspired by that, I’d like to pose the question, what have our carriers done for us in modern times?
 
Here’s the reader’s comment and alternate history scenario: 
 
(Jjabatie April 8, 2023 at 7:56 AM) 
The second no-or minimal-carrier scenario would sprout from the historical Navy/Air Force fight surrounding the USS United States. In the alternate, not only is the new supercarrier torpedoed, but future ones are as well, when the Air Force achieves a much larger victory in their push for primacy with their bombers. Long range bombing is somehow pushed through and overwhelmingly accepted as the nations primary system of conventional and nuclear attack. The Navy is punished/penalized for the fight and loses a massive percentage of their funding. Most of the Essexs dont get upgrades, angled decks, etc. New jet aircraft development lags behind for the Navy, as they have neither the funding to stay current, nor the platforms capable of carrying them. It becomes circular, as later cries for supercarriers are countered by the lack of capable aircraft needing such a platform, and requests for new aircraft and ships are dismissed. The missile age solidifies the Air Forces budgetary grip, as they hold all the nuclear forces. They conspire with the Army to massively expand airlift capabilities, yet another way to deprive the Navy of a mission and funding, by claiming theyve replaced sealift. SSBNs do arrive, but  nearly a decade later than in actual history, again due to budgetary constraints and opposition to the need for a triad from the Air Force dominated Pentagon. SSGNs become the naval strike arm, and become the USNs most numerous platform. As the Vietnam era comes and goes, the Essexs start to age out. The handful of angled deck conversions have become CAS platforms, the unaltered ones, helicopter platforms to support Marine Corps operations- precursors to the LH platforms that eventually appear as the Navys newest, largest warships in the 70s...
 
Suppose we had gone down the path the reader postulates?  Suppose we had no significant carrier aviation component?  Or, posing the question in a different manner, what have we gained by having a fleet of modern carriers instead of a massively larger Air Force bomber/fighter inventory and capability? 
 
Well, let’s consider the historical events that involved modern carriers and see how they would have differed if we didn’t have carriers.  For this discussion, modern carriers are defined as those from the USS Forrestal (CV-59) on.
 
Vietnam War – While our carriers sat offshore and conducted daily bombing attacks, those attacks were ineffective in the overall conduct of the war.  I know this will offend many but the truth is that carrier aviation didn’t alter the course of the war or produce a definable achievement.  Alternatively, a much larger Air Force presence and capability could have accomplished the same thing.
 
Desert Storm – Carrier aircraft flew many sorties but did not materially affect the course of the war and could have easily been replaced by Air Force aircraft.
 
Kosovo War (1998-99) – NATO forces generated something on the order of 40,000 sorties and the carrier Roosevelt generated 3000 sorties – a minor role.
 
Afghanistan/Iraq – Carrier aviation was reduced to truck plinking and contributed little of value that an increased Air Force presence couldn’t have easily handled.
 
 
 
One notable contribution of carrier aviation was Operation El Dorado Canyon (1986).  Ironically, the Navy was not, originally planned to play a major role.  The strike was assigned to F-117 stealth aircraft but they were removed from the mission at the last moment due to security concerns.  Instead, Air Force F-111 and Navy A-6 Intruders flew the strike.  Even then, the Navy A-6 attack aircraft were unable to meet the mission requirements.  From Wiki,
 
Although the F-111s would be required to fly from distant bases, they were essential to mission success, because the eighteen A-6 available aboard USS Coral Sea (CV-43) and USS America (CV-66) could not carry enough bombs to simultaneously inflict the desired damage on the five targets selected.
 
It seems clear that there have been few tangible benefits from having a fleet of modern carriers.  Of course, the real question is not what have the carriers done but what could they do?  Many of the weapons and capabilities in our military have never or rarely been used and yet we find value in them for what they could do, if needed.  For example, our nuclear arsenal has not actually accomplished anything, never having been used in modern times, but we find it to be very valuable because of what it could do. 
 
Thus, the question becomes, what can our carriers do in the future that makes them worth the cost, as opposed to the carrier budget being routed to the Air Force, instead?
 
I see great value in carriers but only if they’re used correctly and, unfortunately, I see zero evidence that the Navy has any strategy for effectively utilizing carriers in combat.
 
It is fascinating to ponder what the Air Force could have done with all the Navy’s carrier and aircraft budget.  How many more bombers would we have?  How many more bases?  How many more types of aircraft?  How much more globally dispersed would the Air Force be?  And so on.
 
Note that I am not advocating eliminating carriers.  This is just a fantasy, speculative post although it offers the opportunity to assess how we’ve used (or misused) carrier aviation and what our proper position should be in the future.  It’s an open-ended post in the sense that I’m not offering any conclusion.  I leave it to you to draw your own conclusion and maybe share your thoughts in a comment.

69 comments:

  1. Well, here's my view. I apologize in advance if it's a bit over-simplified.

    I don't believe carriers are either obsolete or useless. Fundamentally, an aircraft carrier is just a portable airbase. So, as long as there is value in tactical aircraft, which have relatively short ranges (for both performance and tactical reasons - since intercontinental flight, even if possible, drastically reduces possible sortie rates) and therefore require bases relatively close to the action, there is value in having a portable airbase.

    This is because you can't always count on finding a land-based runway where and when you need it. This is both because there may not be any (for example if you have to fight in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, which we haven't had to do since World War 2but might well have to do if we fight China) and because all the ones that exist are probably on someone else's territory, and access requires diplomatic negotiations which take time and don't always succeed.

    For example, we have historical examples of even NATO allies denying us the use of air bases in their territory, sometimes even on our own bases. Which, if I recall correctly, is why the F111's in the 1986 Libya episode had to fly from the UK. Closer NATO allies denied us basing and overflight rights, I believe.

    But, the fact that carriers are useful does not imply any of the following:

    - That future carriers should be the same as current ones (100,000 ton CVN's)
    - That the number of future carriers should be the same as today
    - That, in the future we should use them the same way we have for the past few decades.

    One point is that, while a carrier battle group certainly is a lethal weapons system, I'm pretty sure it's also the most expensive way we have of delivering munitions on a target. So if you don't really need it in a particular case, maybe it's better to rely on land-based aircraft that are probably more cost effective.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "you can't always count on finding a land-based runway where and when you need it."

      Well, one of the fascinating aspects of this is what ADDITIONAL bases (and where) might we have developed if we hadn't gone the carrier route? Would we have a more extensive global basing system? Without carriers, would we have prioritized bases in Philippines and throughout the Pacific? Who can say? It is, however, interesting to speculate about.

      Delete
    2. "Well, one of the fascinating aspects of this is what ADDITIONAL bases (and where) might we have developed if we hadn't gone the carrier route? "

      The problem with this is that there is no US territory in much of the world, so any such bases would be on someone else's territory. And then we are at their mercy as to whether we are allowed to use those bases in any particular case. For example, we HAD bases in the Philippines but were kicked out. And some of our closest allies (other NATO members) have refused permission for us to use our own bases on their territory in some cases. And are we really certain that Japan would allow us to use our Japan-based bases in a Taiwan contingency, if China pressed on them?

      The advantage of a carrier is that it is "4 acres (or at least close to that) of sovereign US territory."

      Delete
    3. "there is no US territory in much of the world"

      Okay, you're not grasping the point and purpose of this exercise. We all know that don't currently have many bases in, say, the Pacific. BUT, what if we had never developed carrier aviation? Obviously, we would have had a MUCH greater focus on, and prioritization of, acquiring bases. Remember, the time frame of interest here dates back to 1950 so we would have had plenty of time to develop bases, secure long term leases, perhaps prioritize friendly relations with many more countries SO AS TO SECURE THE BASES AN AIR FORCE-CENTRIC SERVICE WOULD NEED.

      Do you grasp the idea, now? We would have been focused since 1950 on acquiring and securing bases. How much different would our posture be, today? Quite a bit, I'm sure! Now, whether that different posture would be better or worse than today is question.

      Imagine if we had developed bases in the Philippines, the Solomons, Malaysia, Vietnam, Thailand, Taiwan, India, the Marianas, Indonesia, and elsewhere. Would we still need carriers if we had bases in all those locations?

      The Chinese have secured bases with 99 year leases and full autonomy. Suppose we had done the same in all those locations I mentioned? Would we need carriers?

      Delete
    4. There are options between carriers and land bases, too. We had the mobile offshore base concept post Gulf War but it’s terribly bloated with the semi submersible stuff and the troop carrying capability. You could just tow some steel sections to where you want an expeditionary airfield and anchor them.

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_offshore_base

      Delete
    5. "Okay, you're not grasping the point"

      Actually, I believe I am grasping the point. OF COURSE we'd have lots more bases under the conditions you describe. But, unless you are saying we would create sovereign US territory in all those locations, those bases would be in someone else's sovereign territory. And they will have a say in how and when we use those bases. And they will filter that through their own perception of their national interests. We know from history that these folks do this NOW, and various countries have forbidden us from using our own bases in their territory on a number of occasions. Why would we expect that to change, especially in an area where China can apply all kinds of pressure to the countries you mentioned in their region, to persuade them to say, in a crunch, that that "99 year lease with full autonomy" is really just a piece of paper?

      In addition, remember that the oceans are HUGE, and the area that can be covered by tactical aircraft from a single base isn't all that big by comparison. So if we need tactical aircraft in the middle of the Pacific (for example, to fight the Chinese navy), there may not be anyplace to put a land-based runway.

      Finally, I'd point out that to add enough bases to actually cover every possible contingency, you're talking about a LOT of bases. That in itself will be extremely costly. Carriers might even be cheaper!!



      Delete
    6. "unless you are saying we would create sovereign US territory in all those locations, those bases would be in someone else's sovereign territory."

      I gave you the Chinese example of a 99 year lease with full autonomy. Why would we not do the same? It's just a matter of offering sufficient incentives to the host location and developing good enough relations to make attractive (that's what a State Department should be doing, anyway!). I'd imagine that Taiwan would have jumped at such a concept at some point. The entire Pacific islands region would likely have jumped at it in exchange for enhanced trade and infrastructure support. We could have made such bases a condition of support for supporting Kuwait and Iraq. And so on, throughout the world.

      " tactical aircraft in the middle of the Pacific (for example, to fight the Chinese navy)"

      We wouldn't fight the Chinese navy with short range, tactical aircraft. We'd use long range bombers/attack aircraft in conjunction with a surface fleet. Our entire combat approach would be different.

      You seem to be completely locked into today's scenario instead of going back to 1950 and re-imagining our entire military development without carriers. It would not be just today's military without a few carriers; it would be completely different in strategy, doctrine, tactics, organization, logistics, and everything else. Use your 're-imagination'!

      "extremely costly."

      Of course it's costly. However, at many-multi-billions of dollars each, carriers are hideously expensive, too, and all that money would have been available to the AF for establishing land bases. All of the carrier's annual operating costs would be available. All of the carrier's nuclear costs would be available. All of the carrier's logistics support costs would be available. Since 1950, how much have we spent on carriers and their associated costs? Half a trillion? A trillion dollars? I don't know but it's staggering. I think funding would have been the least of the issues!

      Delete
    7. I won't comment on the issue of how much the US had spend to maintain it's aircraft carrier fleet throughout the years because no accurate chart exists. But it is hard to say that the US would had spend less in the years by maintaining airfields across the world vis a vis a carrier fleet.

      Delete
    8. "Autonomy does not mean freedom from attack."

      ????? Of course it doesn't. It also doesn't mean freedom from hunger or dust storms or bicycle accidents. It means the freedom to act independent of an outside controlling authority.

      This comment was deleted for stupidity.

      Delete
    9. "And if the nation the airbase is located in one day turns hostile ?"

      Comment deleted for stupidity.

      Delete
  2. I think in a contested ocean they still have value. Scouting, ASW, strike if need be. Its exerting force over land that might be the misplaced focus.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Why couldn't we do scouting, ASW, and strike from land bases? Before you reply that we don't have land bases, see my response to Nagele, above.

      Delete
    2. Carriers can advance air power without having to put boots on the ground and take an airstrip first. Assuming we could have had a worldwide network of bases instead of carriers is the epitome of unrealistic. We'd just have set up shop on Taiwan 80 years ago?

      Delete
    3. "a worldwide network of bases instead of carriers is the epitome of unrealistic."

      If we had not had carriers, presumably we'd have recognized the importance of land bases and worked to develop a worldwide network. That's the 'what if' part of this exercise. An example would be the Panama Canal. We saw a need so worked to acquire, construct, and operate it. Presumably, recognizing the need for global bases, we'd have made it happen.

      What's unrealistic about that?

      Delete
    4. "An example would be the Panama Canal"

      Doesn't really affect the overall argument, but the Panama Canal may not be the best example here. Prior to the US undertaking construction, Panama was part of Colombia. We had a treaty to lease the land and develop the canal, but the Colombian Senate did not approve. So the US supported some Panamanian rebels who wanted to break up and create an independent Panama. The US army and Navy were directly involved.

      We then got the treaty with the new nation.

      Delete
    5. "So the US supported some Panamanian rebels"

      That's called statesmanship. The world is not yet all rainbows and kittens. Might still makes right. We do what we must to ensure our national survival. We've engineered coups before and, if necessary, we'd do it again.

      "Panama Canal may not be the best example"

      It's a perfect example !!!!! We tired a soft approach and then we tried a harder approach. We got what we wanted.

      Delete
  3. If you can ensure that a fully functional airbase will be present at every theater of war on demand and is not subjected to enemy attack and reconnaissance. Then carriers would not matter.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Of course an airbase would be subject to attack - as would a carrier. See my reply to Nagele, above.

      Delete
  4. "What have our deployed carriers done for us?" is a better question. Look at history to see if we really needed a carrier within a few days. I think in nearly all cases we had time for one to arrive from CONUS. We should deploy carriers for specific exercises for around 60 days, not 6-8 months of mostly screwing around.

    Then we can have a system to surge six carriers in a month. Every couple of years, we can have an exercise with six carriers! Right now we usually have 2-3 actually deployed and none ready to deploy from CONUS.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The first lesson learned from trying to deploy six carriers to WestPac will be that we don't have the logistics system to support more than three at the same time. Good! Let's fix that.

      Delete
    2. I think this is the key. We don't wargame because its almost always business business business, deployment after deployment. Games teach. Fun stimulates the brain. Our Navy is going to die from work before it ever sees a fight.

      Delete
  5. People, people, people ... you're not grasping the 'what if' nature of this exercise. If we had not developed carriers, we presumably would have had a MUCH greater emphasis on developing and securing bases around the world and throughout the Pacific. See my reply to Nagele, above.

    Now, try again. What have our carriers offered that a total focus on the Air Force and bases could not have provided?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "Our “allies” have their own agendas that frequently do not coincide with that of the US. History has proven, repeatedly, that with the exception of the UK (and even they occasionally part ways with us), we cannot count on our supposed allies when crises arise"
      So said CNO

      Delete
    2. "we cannot count on our supposed allies when crises arise"

      We cannot! That's why, in this alternate scenario, we'd secure bases with full autonomy! We have the Chinese example to inspire our imaginations if we can't, ourselves, conceive of acquiring bases with full autonomy. We'd just use different methods.

      Delete
  6. With the lack of a carrier fleet, that reduces the Navy towards cruise missile + large guns cruiser battleships fleet primarily designed towards plummeting ground bases. I also think they can only operate within the circle of US established air superiority bubble with small inkling of ground/airbases development slightly increases the US sphere of dominance expands as we worked with more countries. I think we would chose to have much smaller bases in many well-established countries (like Saudi, Germany, Korea, and Japan) and towards developing multiple much smaller FOB and outposts everywhere in the world with central hubs in those aforementioned countries.

    One thing for certain however, the MAGTF will be the main component of the day and the Army Water corps and the Airforce will strive to replicate and enhance that with the Navy's Fire support vessels off sea. Instead of having Carrier Strike group, we would be having a MAGTF - NS (Naval Supported).

    ReplyDelete
  7. I’m with Bob Nagele on this one.
    We could have bases in all the countries you list, but at the end of the day, and regardless of what the basing agreement might say, we’re going to be relying on the full cooperation and good faith of whatever government might be in power in those countries at the time of a military conflict with China to honour their agreements with us.
    They may elect to join with us in that conflict or they may not; we would have no way of knowing or predicting what course they would choose to follow. We might however reasonably expect that they would all do their level best to remain neutral, since the Chinese would make it very clear that if the United States military used a base in country X to facilitate its operations, then country X would become a legitimate target for a Chinese strike.
    The only bases we could count on in wartime would be sovereign bases, like the Brits have in Cyprus, or ours at Guantanamo Bay, or our own carrier force.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Oh good grief. Use some imagination. Don't you think that if our national security had been dependent on it, we couldn't have arranged for fully autonomous bases? The Chinese have done it with no problem. Instead of bribes and debt traps, we'd offer enhanced trade, infrastructure construction, and so forth. Countries would jump at the opportunity to secure enhanced trade arrangements which would hugely benefit their economies. Use some imagination!

      Delete
    2. ‘Don’t you think….we couldn’t have arranged for fully autonomous (?) bases’.
      No, of course we couldn’t. An agreement signed during peacetime - regardless of what it said - may or may not be worth something in wartime; that’s pretty obvious surely?
      Any agreement that gave us basing rights in return for economic, trade or development aid is always going to leave us vulnerable to being outbid or blackmailed, or to a change of government or circumstances, or to the host government becoming too greedy and corrupt even for us, which is why we pulled out of Subic Bay and Clark Field.
      To put it another way, how comfortable would you be that a US military base on the French territory of New Caledonia (HQ for South Pacific Command in WW2) would be available to us in the event of a conflict with China? Not confident at all presumably, so why would you assume that US forces would be able to operate freely in wartime from anywhere else?

      Delete
    3. You obtain a contract granting you a base location with full autonomy. If a host country tries to renege, you use military and economic force to remind them that you have a valid contract and intend to abide by it. It's pretty a pretty simple process. What part don't you understand? Or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?

      Delete
    4. I’m not arguing with you, just courteously disagreeing with you.
      The ‘part that I don’t understand’ is how you can think that any of the countries on your list of proposed sites for a U.S. military base would enter into such an agreement, and whether you’re seriously suggesting that in the event that they changed their minds, or ‘reneged’, we would ‘exert trade or military pressure’ to enforce our rights (against eg India!!).
      As a matter of international law btw we wouldn’t actually have any such rights.

      Delete
    5. For reasons I can't fathom, you're focused on an utterly irrelevant, minor concern and ignoring all the great aspects of this topic that could be discussed.

      We've already encountered the exact scenario you're concerned about and applied the exact solution I described. It's Guantanamo Bay in Cuba. We entered into a permanent lease for the base in 1903. Eventually, Cuba/Castro wanted it back and became quite hostile (your exact concern). The US response has been a combination of the threat of military force and economic sanctions (my exact response). The result? We retain ownership of the base. Done.

      You seem to have some unreasoning fear that some tiny country with no significant military (let's face it, that's the status of most countries/locations where we would have such a base) is going to militarily attack us and forcefully eject us. That's absurd. There are very few countries in the world that have the military might and economic strength to impose their will on us.

      Other than arguing for its own sake, I really don't see any valid concern here. That should end this thread.

      Delete
  8. As I see it the purpose of carriers is:

    1 To provide air cover for surface ships. The carrier ensures the fleet will have local air supperiority.

    2 To do reconnaissance for the fleet. Aircraft ensure the fleet does not get surprised.

    3 To conduct air strikes. The advantage of aircraft over naval artillery is that aircraft can find their own targets.

    Evaluating carriers, requires evaluating the whole fleet, in context of a risk-averse and politically correct military culture.
    The battlships, landing ships, amphibious operations, mines, minesweeping, naval gunfire, and nearly everything else we think of as "power projection" has been abandoned.

    This is why the military is obsessed with drones, and stand-off ranged missiles, and C-RAM, and all this other crap which doesn't win wars. It's why the fat kids, trans kids, retards, and pregnant women and other non-combatants are guaranteed careers in the navy ("inclusion" or "diversity").

    I personally expect the rise of Chinese Hegemony to be a cold war. The sabre rattling is about securing funding, not about actual warfighting. ("Build ships that can't fight, retire them, and then build more!").


    ReplyDelete
  9. perhaps the value of carriers is more akin to the nuclear deterrent. It is the presence of a carrier group close to any area of actual or threatening conflict which acts as a visual physical deterrent/trip wire for the much greater level of force which could be brought to bear by the US. Aircraft overflights or off shore sorties by a long range bomber/s it could be argued would not present the same level of presence or potential intent when compared with that posed by an aircraft carrier cruising only a relatively short distance away. This it could be argued has been shown to be effective over time against lesser threats but against a peer threat would obviously be of lesser value but would still be a highly visible show of US military potential.
    As an aside, the currently unappreciated value of aircraft carriers, preferably of a smaller, less complicated and less expensive type than currently in service, as mobile carriers for dedicated ASW aircraft/helicopter units is a mystery. Such ASW capable carriers would greatly increase the ability of the navy to hunt and locate the (increasing and improving) nuclear subs of potential adversaries, which it could be argued pose a much greater threat than land or aircraft launched offensive weaponry. Not a great deal of effort appears to be going into retaining, increasing and honing the skills necessary to undertake ASW let alone the physical means of doing so at distance from our maritime units.

    ReplyDelete
  10. I'm struck - and disappointed - by the lack of imagination being displayed by so many. It's an alternate history. EVERYTHING WOULD HAVE HAPPENED DIFFERENTLY and yet most commenters seem to want to fit it into today's reality. Open your minds, people!

    Imagine yourself as the supreme ruler of the United States and you have no carriers, only a massive Air Force to secure the welfare of the United States. Are you really going to tell me that you couldn't figure out how to establish fully autonomous bases around the world, knowing that the existence of the US depends on it?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I think this is an unfair opinion. Any sort of "what if" thought experiment needs SOME restriction to be answerable.

      WW2, the Cold War, and post-Cold War eras were all very different for the navy, and the purpose (excuse) for carriers has evolved over time. For example, suppose the carriers had been present at Pearl Harbor while the battleships were at sea. World War II would have played out differently. Or suppose fear of nuclear weapons had led to an "all submarine" navy.

      Or suppose the US military existed to defend Americans and American soil. The navy's role would be to protect our coasts, and our merchant shipping. We wouldn't be policing an empire, and wouldn't need to find alternate means to do so. And you haven't considered that possibility. ANYTHING could have happened, but didn't.

      The thought experiment lacks parameters, it's too open-ended

      Delete
    2. It's a 'what if'. Fill in your own restrictions. They just have to be logical and reasonable.

      Delete
  11. Part of the alternate history would be that we got run out of Korea by the NORKs. We were headed down the "Alternate" path you describe until Korea made it obvious that carriers were the only way to provide decent air support to our troops.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Any forward base not on USA soil is subject to the whims of the locals. See g2mil's blog for detailed discussion of the issues on Okinawa. If we choose to avoid those issues by not establishing bases on foreign soil, then carriers become the only way to get airpower to a lot of places. If we did not have carriers we would clearly need a bunch of foreign bases--unless we decided that the burden of establishing and maintaining the world order was too great. A lack of carriers would therefore have dictated a vastly different foreign policy stance. Maybe better, maybe not, but clearly different.

    Where would we have put bases in Africa?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. " A lack of carriers would therefore have dictated a vastly different foreign policy stance. "

      Duh. That was the entire point of the post. Now, do you have an offering that isn't a restatement of the post?

      Delete
    2. Your premise requires air bases dotted around the world or v long range bombers and fighters kept aloft by numerous air refuelling tankers themselves operating at long range. Assuming we wish land bases, then we need them around the world at strategically placed choke points.
      The Atlantic is I would suggest covered. Greenland base, Iceland, Uk, Azores and Ascension. Further south if deemed necessary I would suggest The Falklands. UK would agree as it Neatly solves the Argentinian problem and by giving the Argentinians preferable trade deal they could set aside the sovereignty issue as remains open. Indian Ocean is pretty well covered by Diego Garcia and a new base in North Australia. This would help reassure Aus in its issues with China. The thorny issue is the Pacific and China Sea. Aside from Hawaii and the Aleutians and Guam the solution is where to create bases closer to the China Sea. Survey the seas at areas assessed as “ideal” in terms of location etc and then find low lying semi submersed “islands” in that location. Then raise the ground level to form a stable, large permanent island.
      Time and money sure….but well spent if you have a sovereign permanent base at or close to your ideal location. After all if the Chinese can do it then why not the US?

      Delete
    3. “Duh. That was the entire point of the post. Now, do you have an offering that isn't a restatement of the post?”

      I think the original post focused more upon the military implications than foreign policy implications, and the foreign policy implications were more about overseas bases than what I had in mind. Because any base on foreign soil is subject to the whims of the host country, I think we should put such bases on places we control (Guam, Diego Garcia effectively) or have truly solid allies (UK, Australia, Japan) and rely on naval forces including carriers for more forward actions.

      I think back to Bill Clinton’s comment that whenever there was a crisis anywhere in the world, the first question on a president’s mind was, “Where are the carriers?”

      What changes might have occurred? At the end of WWII, we bribed up an alliance to stop Soviet expansion into western Europe. At Bretton Woods and subsequently, we said, “We are the only country with our economy, army, and navy still fairly well intact. Therefore, we will make you a deal:
      “1) your economies are in shambles, so we will give you preferred access to rebuild your economies by selling into our economy,
      “2) your militaries are depleted, so we will deploy USA troops to help you defend against the Soviets,
      “3) your navies are largely at the bottoms of various oceans, so we will defend your sea lines of communication (SLOCs) with our Navy, and
      “4) in return, you will fall in line and obey our orders in fighting the Cold War.”

      This deal was the basis for NATO and the Marshall Plan. We swapped economy for security. The demand fueled by our military personnel returning from the war was more than our domestic economy could supply, so both our economy and Europe’s and Japan’s grew significantly. We have had 70+ years of relative peace, the pax Americana.

      Without carriers, we would not have been able to offer or deliver on #3 of that bribe. We could not have become the world’s policeman. The pax Americana would not have happened. I suspect what would have happened to be some version of the following:

      - We would have formed NATO and had about the same number of USA troops stationed in Europe.
      - With the necessity to protect their own SLOCs, the UK and probably France would have built or maintained more carriers, and Holland, Canada, and Australia would have kept theirs longer than they did.
      - The country that has probably benefitted most from the pax Americana—China—would have been slower to grow and develop its own economy.

      The pax Americana worked very well. Reagan finally put more pressure on the Soviet economy than it could stand and brought the evil empire down. If anything, it worked too well, and when the Berlin Wall fell, the old paradigm became outmoded. But we didn’t know what to do next.

      So what to do now? In 1992 Ross Perot said something that I had been thinking for some time, “In the post-Cold-War era, economic power will be more important than military power.” We have never taken that to heart, but China did. While we have spent 2 decades in the MidEast trying military force to impose western ways on people who don’t want them, China has been using economic power to create a large sphere of influence in the global South.

      I fear that our economy has reached the point where we can no longer trade economy for security. Today we need to:

      - Restore the production sector of our economy, particularly the production of essential products. We need policies to foster the return of productive activities to the USA.
      - Find allies to whom we can pass off some world policeman duties. The British Commonwealth looks like the best candidate. Combined, Commonwealth countries probably have about the 4th strongest military, and 2nd strongest navy, in the world.
      - Counter Chinese expansion. I would think we could get some mileage out of exposing the deals that China is offering developing nations as the frauds that they are.
      - Restore and maintain naval and military superiority in WestPac.

      Delete
    4. " the original post ... any base on foreign soil is subject to the whims of the host country, I think we should put such bases on places we control"

      Like most commenters, you missed the point of the original post. It was NOT about how we can get bases today or the challenges of operating a base today - it was a 'what if' alternate history WHERE WE WOULD HAVE HAD THE BASES IN OUR POSSESSION AT THE END OF WWII.

      "Without carriers, we would not have been able to offer or deliver on #3 of that bribe."

      Again, not getting it. We would have greatly increased the size and reach of the AF to defend the seas.
      _______________

      I now pronounce you man and paradigm! Till death do you part.

      It's fascinating that even in a 'what if', so many simply cannot let go of their paradigms.

      Delete
  13. If you want an alternate history on what would happen ? Well, the US might have overstretched itself in trying to maintain airbases throughout the globe, then retracted it's spending and then bemoaned the fact that immeadiete air support is not available to deal with a crisis.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Or ... ... we might have established a viable and effective network of global bases and air power.

      Delete
  14. I am absolutely stunned at the inability of commenters to exercise any imagination whatsoever. The rigidity of thought and paradigm-locking is astounding! Come on, people. Do better.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The reason for the stats you've shown having the Air Force contributing significantly more each time is because the Air Force HAS placed autonomous and semi-autonomous bases all around the world . So for many the predominance of USAF over the Navy isn't that different than reality. Every President may yell "where's the carriers?" but then sends Air Force assets to do the actual strike 9 times out of 10.
      And carriers are almost cheap compared to huge, spawling air bases especially if they have to have hangers and support for heavy bombers--an important factor in an USAF planning on sinking ships. You probably won't t end up with as many extra bases as you might think due to budget constraints.

      More importantly, this is a site whose commentators are interested in all things Navy, and an ascendant air force is blasphemy.
      .

      Delete
    2. I have no information on base costs but I would point out that the Navy buys a new $15B-$20B carrier every five years because we're constantly retiring the carriers after a lifespan of 30-50 years. In contrast, bases last forever (yes, with maintenance and occasional upgrades). We have bases that are hundreds of years old.

      Delete
  15. Speaking as former Air Force, I can tell you one thing it would not have helped; heavy bombers. The fighter pilot bias in USAF is worse than the Navy,
    Since the dawn of the atomic age the Air Force has really only kept them on by the fact the B-52 has been able to keep going and going. The B-2, despite the occasional raid is too expensive and too few for anything except as a strategic nuclear system and it's B-21 successor will be the same. Moreover compared to the Buff, the B-2 has relatively small bomb load.
    Proposals to upgrade the B-1B to a B-1R configuration with better engines, speed, range, payload, terrain-following and even Amraams for self-defense caused seizures among the brass and quickly buried. Proposals for 747's armed with 72 cruise missiles--nearly Burke capacity--never made it past the paper and display model stage.
    To take on a large navy across a large ocean requires a large bomber. Especially if it is going to carry large missiles the LRASM. Instead, just like the Navy, they have focused on the F-35 which has a puny internal load only suitable for Close Air Support, which it will never do at 100 mil a plane. Put it in what USAF calls "Beast mode" simply brings it up to 1970's standards of payload, at 1950's level of fighter range.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "one thing it would not have helped; heavy bombers."

      You're describing today's reality, not a 'what if' alternate history. Imagine the AF being handed the Navy's entire carrier budget and being allowed to run with it while being tasked with ALL of our long range, global strike responsibility. We would have developed more bombers and procured more of them.

      "To take on a large navy across a large ocean requires a large bomber."

      And that's what the AF would have tasked with and they would have been given the budget to do it so ... ... more bombers!

      You've kind of made the case against your own case!

      You, and everyone else, is having a very difficult time imagining an alternate reality.

      Delete
  16. Lots of airbases suggest that we're trading aircraft carriers that float for ones that don't. How about what the Navy might specifically look like forgetting aircraft entirely? Dozens and dozens of SSGN's carrying hundreds or thousands of missiles. Power that can't be easily found, but massive when used. Isn't that also an alternate?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yes! And that would be one plausible and realistic alternate history scenario. Congratulations! You're the first person to grasp the alternate nature of this thought exercise.

      Delete
  17. I'd look at it from the viewpoint of the other guys that get a vote for starters- the enemy.
    1. Russia would have either gone all in on Carriers, in order to project power that could not be matched with our lack of carriers, or they would have not bothered going down the path of their 3 dud carriers but were working on the alternative form of their own super carrier. Those $ by the way are hard to come by for Soviets, so any side action study was a benefit to not buying more Bears/Backfires/nuke subs.
    2. China would have taken Taiwan in the 2000-2010 timeframe when they had a real navy by that point and we had nothing to truly stop them with. I say they wouldn't prior because their navy was truly not up to snuff and would have been a huge fleet of civilian craft not suited for it.
    3. The US probably would not have abandoned so many bases in the middle east for the AF, and the all too often constant Carrier presence for the Middle East being absent, might have changed some of the relationships prior to the 90's. A constant presence say in Libya or other countries may have contributed to less political upheaval when their are US airmen in country and interacting with the local public.
    4. Sub development would have taken on a new premium, leading to more exotic subs capable of more tasks. A typhoon sized sub able to deliver a fully loaded battalion of armor, whether to a beach, a port, etc. may have been built in order to need less escorts since there was no aviation support in the middle of the nowhere Pacific, let alone places where we could not afford to have presence.
    5. Arsenal ships, aka nuke cruisers and maybe even a nuke battleship, would have been absolutely delivered for power projection as unsinkable moving islands.
    6. In same vein of substitution, not sinking $ into Aviation assets means the weapons development would have gone into longer/farther missiles, including some launched from Space.
    7. Several of our Allies whose navies became much less effective may indeed have kept more carriers and brought in new classes. Aussies/French/Brits/Canadians may have still had carriers in two of their cases and in the other two may have 3-5 carriers each to seemingly fill a void.
    8. No doubt, the US would not be looked at in the same light politically when it had no moving entire wings of aircraft that could show up within 300 miles of an enemy coast with nukes. Hence super bomber fleets or not, there would be others to fill the void (see #7 and #1).
    9. At some point, we'd be in a war that would not have happened beyond a Carrier strike or two, and instead have the Marines/Army in a large engagement than planned for, probably Iran, maybe Cuba, substitute in one.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Alternate Scenario. It begins with Billy Mitchell getting White House patronage instead of railroaded by the Military. This leads the Air Force to begin working on heavier bombers sooner with the actual intent on showing up the Navy in anti-ship warfare.
    Then on the fateful day of Pearl Harbor, the carriers are also sitting nice and pretty in the harbor. They are destroyed. There are no carriers to launch the Doolittle raid, but B-17s are not only fielded earlier and in greater numbers but improved upon, and go ship hunting anywhere they can in the pacific. The Philippines don't fall as quick because the Army troops there have heavy bombers that take out the first wave of Japanese ships, albeit at a high cost.
    Hitler in a fit of actual rationality does not declare war on the US and it becomes Japan first instead of Europe first in US Strategy and production.
    With no carrier budget, the money goes to building Air Force bases in parts of China not under Japanese control.
    Fast forward to a Battle of Midway fought mostly by B-29s produced 3 years earlier than our world. Thousands of Marines fight in China instead of sacrificing themselves in an island hopping campaign. The heavy air power and Marines leads to the Japanese pulling back there and Japan soon experiences the horror of firebombing from Chinese airspace instead of the islands the Marines didn't need to attack. Atomic bombs are dropped on Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and Okinawa, plus Dresden, and Berchtesgaden where Hitler's fortress is no match for a 10 kiloton bomb. Hitler is assassinated and Germany sues for peace. Surrender terms includes Air bases in German-occupied land which the US uses to infuriate Stalin by placing a bomber base in Czechoslovakia.
    Post-war, the US pressures allies (especially Britain)for air bases in their colonies. US air bases end up in India, Hong Kong, and Malaysia in the Pacific, and pressures Chiang Ka-shek for a base in Taiwan just before the Chinese Maoist Revolution. The USAF in conjunction with Navy Battleships (which they build in lieu of carriers) effectively makes the South China sea a US lake. putting further pressure on China. The turnover of Hong Kong to China never happens as the US objects to having its base--which has expanded to an artificial island in the bay--as part of the deal. To protect the growing importance of Gulf oil, the US asks for permission to build a base not on Arabian soil but on an artificial island--which costs roughly what the never-built Ford class would have cost. This is then declared US soil and soon B-B's armed with anti-ship cruise missiles are regularly flying over the gulf on patrols.
    Post war, the US has permanent bases on Taiwan, and parts of China where the huge US presence prevents a complete Maoist takeover.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. That's some good, alternate thinking!

      Now, compare your alternate with reality and what conclusions do you draw? Which is better? What positives can we take from each version to apply to our current reality moving forward?

      Delete
    2. Well m first thoughts are To me the biggest threat to the alternate scenario doing well is the politics of host countries. While I do believe a Hong Kong base would discourage the Brits turning it over to China, as former colonies and commonwealths go independent what will they think of that big honking air base?
      The Philippines was our biggest air and naval base in the Pacific for most of the cold war, but we were asked to leave after the fall of the Marcos regime. We are once more renewing those contacts but we still aren’t getting full bases again. Assuming we had bases in India, Malaysia or the Middle East throughout the cold war, how many would we still have by 2000 let alone 2023?
      A combination of heavy land based bombers and nuclear weapons could have ended war with Germany just as surely as it did Japan. But in the real world our own NATO allies grumbled more than the Soviet Union about nuclear weapons in Europe. With twice as many bases would we have twice the problems?
      In my scenario we ended up with China fairly contained. Or did it? Assume those bases are all still there. The real life China began its arms build up as our “friend” AFTER the Tiananmen massacre. Yes it started to liberalize and become freer but it didn’t last. So if the same thing happens in my scenario it would delay but not eliminate a Chinese threat. They would have to build up more in air power themselves. But if they did attack, our bases could be cut off or wiped out as a fixed site ala Pearl Harbor. But a carrier group could pull away from the area to engage later when the odds were in their favor.
      On the other hand those could be some really big bases. Even if we stuck with overpriced F-35A’s for the airforce, for the 13+ billion price of one Ford class that’s 130 F-35s or nearly 200 upgraded F-16s. Or they could have the equivalent of AEGIS Ashore and still have money for 5 times the aircraft of a carrier.
      All of which beggars a question of should the Navy have shore based heavies of their own in our world? In WW2 they did but then post WW2 the land based fixed wing assets were ASW or transports for the most part. Just as the Army would love to take the A-10 off the Air Force’s hands, I wonder what a competent Navy could do with B-52’s, B-1Bs or old proposals of B-747s armed with long range ASShM? An alternate world Air Force might focus on anti-shipping but the current one certainly doesn't. Of course the real Navy has no clue what ships they want, let alone what to do with a B-52 with 20+ Anti ship missiles.

      Delete
    3. Continuing to think on bases vs carriers: which is easier to repair after an attack? A runway or a sinking ship? laying down concrete or pulling a nuclear reactor off the bottom of the South China Sea?
      A forward airbase could also host aircraft from any ally with land-based aircraft, which would be all of them. But only a few have carrier capable aircraft or crews and a carrier has a finite amount of room for its own aircraft let alone others. Just as a carrier can have jets on deck as well as below, a base can have even more parked on the sides of runways not just in hangers.
      If quantity has its own quality then air bases once again have an advantage.

      Delete
    4. This is good, and I don't mean to be picky, but I'm not sure this strategy would have worked in the 1940's. We didn't have the technology to address two things without carriers (when our adversaries had them).

      First is sea control. Carrier aircraft (dive bombing and torpedo bombing) were the dominant naval weapon. Land based aircraft either didn't have the range or the ability (heavy bombers never effectively developed an anti-ship capability without guided weapons). Without sea control, Japan prevents US (sea borne) logistics from supporting operations in China or Pacific islands.

      The other challenge is ASW. We tried to cover the Atlantic with land based aircraft and failed. That's why we developed baby carriers to fill the gap. They were a necessity back then.

      Delete
    5. "I'm not sure this strategy would have worked in the 1940's"

      Just a reminder, the post specified that this alternate reality would have started in 1950. The trigger event was postulated to be the Revolt of the Admirals having gone the Air Force's way instead of the Navy's.

      Delete
  19. To me the most obvious differences would be that the US would have kept more territory rather than giving it autonomy or back to other countries. Okinawa, parts of the Philippines, etc.

    In our timeline we kept assets like Guam, Wake, or Kwaj that are important for bombers or nuclear stuff and let go of the forward fighter bases because carriers could fill that gap. Without carriers we would have kept some Philippine Islands and lesser Okinawan islands like Miyakojima at a minimum.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. We certainly aren't above removing a few natives when required like we did at Diego Garcia.

      Delete
  20. I wrote about the value of land-based naval power. The entire proposal is on-line here:

    https://www.g2mil.com/bm747.htm

    Here is part:

    A naval bomber mission involving eight 737s is practical and effective. They would operate in two flights of four aircraft that attack from two directions, right angle from one another to ensure one volley of missiles has a broadside target; it is difficult for a missile to hit a ship head-on. Therefore, the anti-missile tactic of turning the fleet toward an incoming volley of cruise missiles will not work if another volley is incoming at a right angle. Each flight would consist of an E-737 airborne radar aircraft (below), a P-8, and two B-737 bombers loaded with missiles. The P-8s small weapons bay may be loaded with several anti-aircraft cruise missiles, similar to SUBSAMs, while smaller Harpoon anti-ship missiles may be carried under wing for individual targets of opportunity. Each B-737 would have 35 anti-ship cruise missiles of various types.

    ReplyDelete
  21. A carrier less navy could be a modernized battleship navy. The Ford Class is actually bigger than a New Jersey class in nearly every dimension. So with same price and size you could not only have the enormous 16 inch naval guns--now firing rocket assisted or other extended range rounds--but plenty of space for a peripheral VLS zumwalt style holding more SAMs than a Tico, plus conventional VLS of equal number of cruise missiles for land attack, and the turret tops festooned with multiple point defense weapons. As much missile firepower as 2 or 3 Ticos plus more air defense and 16 inch guns. And armor. And here is the kicker--cheaper to operate. No air crews or aircraft maintenance or the support personnel for those squadrons. that reduces the manning to half that of a Ford (if it worked). And there are no expensive aircraft either . Remember the 13 Billion for the Ford does not include aircraft. The missiles for a Battleship would be expensive but with a carrier it is aircraft plus missiles unless you plan to send them into combat with just a 20mm gun. In fact it is aircraft + the same missiles as even the aircraft are to use long range missiles now.

    ReplyDelete
  22. (Apologizing is if this is a re-post)

    Perhaps the Martin P6M SeaMaster would have gotten more research and development, and gone into service. Air strikes from the sea could have delivered more pounds on the target. Specialized versions for electronic warfare and ASW could have been developed, too.

    An additional possibility is the Convair R3Y Tradewind also getting more R&D and going into service. In addition to it being a transport and cargo plane for the Navy and Marines, the Navy, Coast Guard, and even Air Force could have bought an SAR variant. (Admittedly, the Tradewind seems less likely to have benefitted from a de-emphasis on carriers than the SeaMaster.)

    Less emphasis on carriers could have resulted in more emphasis on naval surface fire support. Over the years, there were proposals to increase the battleships' gun range with saboted, subcaliber shells. In this alternate history, there is a good chances those proposals would have been implemented. Also, perhaps saboted 155 mm shells would have been fired from the 8-inch guns aboard heavy cruisers in Vietnam. Today we might have guidance systems for these shells that are extremely accurate, rugged and reliable, and not terribly expensive.

    ReplyDelete
  23. I was the original commenter about a less carrier centric navy. Another reader suggested an alternate path of development that might have lead to that endpoint. I however, was thinking of much more recent events and how we could have or still could reduce the reliance on carriers for the projection of power.

    Someone suggested a carrier’s purpose is local air superiority. OK, what anti-air defenses would $60+ billion (3 CVNs) and 30 years of R&D give a surface fleet? Could it eliminate the need for air superiority via tactical aircraft?

    If there is a need for carriers, could they be more like Lilly pads than floating airbases? Could advances in V/STOL craft enable a new paradigm? People talk about what the F-35 A&C could have been if not for the F35B spoiler. Well, what if the F-35B had been a stand alone program? Might it have been more capable itself? How might that have factored into carrier design?

    E.

    ReplyDelete
  24. I'll take a shot:

    The Air Force could fill essentially all of the roles that carriers fill by expanding their own inventories of planes and having more bases. Even the places where carriers excel are simply engineering challenges.

    Local Air Superiority at Sea

    Reforger during the Cold War comes to mind. How to protect convoys in the mid-Atlantic gap without carriers? This is also the challenge we faced during WW2, which led to auxiliary carriers. This could be addressed through the development of a longer ranged fighter and the expansion of tanker fleets. "Carrier ASW" could be accomplished through a combination of ship based helicopters and P-3's.

    Naval Strike

    Again, longer-ranged aircraft and tankers could (mostly) deliver the same strike capacity. Enough tankers can get you anywhere! Maybe we even would have made them stealth? This could be supplemented by naval gunfire (funds available for armored cruisers with modern 8" gun systems?) and tomahawks. Ideally there were be funds for more subs and SSGN's specifically.

    There are trade-offs.

    The Pacific is BIG and tankers / longer ranged aircraft wouldn't deliver the flexibility or time on station in the middle... but there's little reason to fight in the middle of the Pacific. The action would be near the land, which means near a potential Air Force base.

    Survivability is another plus for carriers. If we relearned EMCON, they could hide to avoid attack. Fixed airfields can't. And hardening / AA systems won't stop a determined ballistic missile attack, so there are limits to extra resources here. Having more bases (targets) for the enemy to address would help.

    Finally, longer ranged aircraft come with maneuverability and payload trade-offs, in addition to being more expensive.

    Doesn't seem crazy to me. It doesn't even seem too late to start the transition...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "but there's little reason to fight in the middle of the Pacific."

      Excellent recognition of a truth that escapes many!

      Delete
  25. The air force would develop high endurance craft. Perhaps nuclear powered to stay on station for a few days. Also huge numbers to have available for deployment and rotation. I can see orbital bombs that can be available any time.Also ballistic missiles with conventional warheads. No need to have any bases that are not sovereign territory

    ReplyDelete
  26. Past glories don't necessarily guarantee future success.

    A weapon will be replaced if ---

    Its functions can be performed by others
    It is vulnerable to new weapons

    ReplyDelete
  27. I posted this in the next thread, but it probably belongs here:

    Not sure with which post to put this response, but I have to slightly disagree with the idea that SSGN would be the primary offensive weapon system in the original scenario.
    It's a really good thought, but I don't think that the progression quite works.

    After WW2 the trajectory of the navy would go away from carriers, but to where?

    I believe that battleships and heavy cruisers, with their heavy guns for coastal bombardment, would have been the navy's offensive punch, post-war.
    They might have kept all the Iowas and South Dakotas active in that scenario along with large numbers of heavy cruisers.

    The limited number of aircraft carriers would likely be used for CAP over the top of the surface strike groups to protect them from enemy aircraft.

    The navy probably would have pushed the development of extended range rockets to give themselves the ability to reach inland farther than the naval artillery could reach.

    As the technology of missiles progressed, they likely would have been first put on surface ships as a supplement to the aging big-gun ships.

    When the technology reached sufficient maturity, somebody possibly would have conceived the idea to marry them to submarines, which would have been a significant leap forward in capability for the navy.

    But it would also have threatened the role, and budget slice, of the big ships and may have gotten substantial pushback from the establishment navy brass and congress.

    The aging carriers would need to slowly be replaced and the navy likely would have gotten navalized versions of air force fighters to fly off of them to continue to protect the surface fleets.

    Lutefisk

    ReplyDelete

Comments will be moderated for posts older than 7 days in order to reduce spam.