Wednesday, April 19, 2023

The Armored Fleet

We’ve talked, in general terms, about ship armor (see, “Armor Compendium”) and have acknowledged that it was a grave mistake to have abandoned armor protection.  We discussed how modern armor should be applied, conceptually (see, “Conceptual Armor forModern Ships”).  Now, let’s get specific and lay out a detailed armor scheme for a modern fleet based on the fleet described in the ‘Fleet Structure’ tab/page listed at the top of the blog.
  
 
General Considerations
 
Armor is not a random characteristic.  It exists for a specific purpose and to counter a specific threat and on today’s naval battlefield that threat is missiles.  Of course, shell/bomb effects would be mitigated as well by whatever armor we apply but those are far less likely threats and do not drive the armor configuration.
 
Each ship class’ armor fit is proof against a specific threat while offering mitigation against all others.  This was true of WWII ship types where, as a general statement, a type’s armor was designed to be proof against the enemy’s corresponding weapons.  Thus, a cruiser was designed to be armored against a cruiser’s weapons, a battleship’s armor was designed to be proof against a battleship’s big guns, and so on.
 
Obviously, there is no direct data available on missile effects against armor so what follows is speculation, however, it is semi-informed speculation as we do have data on heavy, high velocity (supersonic) naval shells versus armor (see, Okun’s writings at the NavWeaps site).  For example, the muzzle velocity of a typical 16” battleship shell was 2500 ft/sec = Mach 2.3 which is, essentially, a supersonic, heavy missile and battleships were armored to be largely immune to those shells.  Another piece of data is the early tests by the Navy using Harpoon(?) missiles against plates of battleship armor and the result was nothing but scratched paint.  From those kinds of data, we can apply a bit of common sense and extrapolate.  So … semi-informed.
 
Armor sets consist of ‘trigger layers’ (used to be called de-capping) to ignite the missile and make it explode outside the main armor and interior compartments.  The trigger layer is applied to the horizontal deck and, differing from WWII design, the vertical hull.
 
Interior to the trigger layer is the main armor which is the ultimate protective layer, encompassing the critical areas of the ship.
 
Transverse bulkheads are part of all ships with the number and thickness appropriate for the class of ship.
 
Void spaces are an integral facet of the overall armor set and offer torpedo resistance, in particular.
 
We won’t consider more advanced armors like reactive, bubble, flexible, spring, composite, slanted, etc. as they do not yet exist in the naval world.  We’ll consider only existing armor which mainly means traditional plate, structural thickness (transverse bulkheads, for example), and supplemental anti-fragmentation (Kevlar).  Kevlar is included in every armor set, as appropriate, but I have no information on thickness or effectiveness so I can’t offer any specifics beyond ‘it’s there’.
 
 
Threats

The table below lists the specific threat types that each armor set is intended to provide immunity against.  Note that ‘immunity’ doesn’t mean that a ship so armored can stand against an infinite number of missile hits with nothing more than scratched paint.  Armor provides theoretical immunity to a specific threat under specific conditions.  Move outside those specific conditions and damage may/will occur.  There may also be secondary damage.  For example, the missile may not penetrate and cause any direct damage but the explosive shock may cause electronics to fail, pipes to burst, electronics to become misaligned, etc.  There are also weak points in any ship, unintended but existing, that may allow unforeseen damage (Hood, Arizona, Bismarck, etc.).  Thus, ‘immunity’ means that the ship has a pretty good chance of avoiding serious damage from the specified threat or, at worst, can greatly mitigate the damage.
 


 Understanding the threats, we can no lay out specific armor sets for each ship type.
 

Obviously, the listed armor thicknesses would not necessarily be uniform.  The hull belt might vary depending on exact location along the length of the hull or the gun mount might vary between top and sides.  The thicknesses are meant to give a sense of the degree of armor rather than being an exact blueprint for construction.
 
Before anyone has a chance to make a fool of themself by claiming that armor will slow the ships down and decrease their range, note that EVERY combat ship in WWII had appropriate armor, 30+ kts speed, and great range.  If you doubt this, look it up.
 
Build a fleet of ships armored as described and we’ll have a fleet that can stand and fight and keep fighting while taking hits.  No navy in the world can currently do that and it would give us an enormous combat advantage. 
 
The next step after this basic armoring is to begin armoring the sensors, as described in many previous posts.  The sensors would be placed in retractable/closing armored cylinders/compartments.
 
This would get us off the path of cruise ships and back on the path of WARships.
 



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Note:  I’ve added this post to the “Armor Compendium” post to keep the compendium complete and up to date.

53 comments:

  1. Would an ASW frigate/destroyer escort (FF/DE) be armored similarly to one of your destroyers (DD)? I figure you would prefer frigates be armed with 76 mm guns instead of 5-inch guns.

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  2. One thing I've never quite understood is that the need for armor seems fairly obvious, but it isn't just the US Navy that's pretty much done away with it. From what I've read, pretty much all navies have abandoned armor (unless of course the Chinese have some surprises planned for us).

    Any idea why?

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    1. Mission-critical sensors especially radar cannot (effectively) be armoured, so its better to stop the projectile arriving than to shrug off the hit.

      Armouring can cost 20-50% of a ship's displacement. That enormous weight budget put into RAM / ESSM / CIWS instead could buy enough defence to make a ship near-invincible. Literally thousands of cells for the larger ships.

      However in "peacetime", nations instead choose to fit neither!

      Delete
    2. "Any idea why?"

      Why were all countries so slow to adopt the steam engine? Why were all countries so slow to recognize the value of the aircraft carrier? And so on. Group-think and stupidity is alive and well worldwide!

      Delete
    3. "sensors especially radar cannot (effectively) be armoured"

      Of course they can. We simply choose - unwisely - not to. Sensors can placed in, or behind, retractable armored enclosures. We've seen examples of missile launchers in retractable enclosures (many Soviet ships, for example). WWII heavy gun optical sights were armored .

      Delete
    4. I've always said the move away from armor came after the Nuclear Weapon tests. The assumption of the times was that nukes would be used, and the test showed that if the enemy could get through with a nuke it didn't matter how armored the ship was. So the strategy move to preventing the enemy from getting close.

      Delete
    5. "I've always said the move away from armor came after the Nuclear Weapon tests."

      I keep hearing this and every time I do, I ask for documentation because I've been unable to find a single piece of evidence that this is true. Do you have any supporting evidence?

      Delete
    6. "Mission-critical sensors especially radar cannot (effectively) be armoured"

      I don't agree with that.

      A large surface combatant might have a fixed four-panel TSR-3/4D radar.

      Take a look at this depiction:

      https://www.hensoldt.net/fileadmin/_processed_/1/a/csm_TRS-4D-Fixed-Panel_1e4b7ec3aa.jpg

      Now imagine that those panels are mounted in a lightly armored box which provides protection against blast fragments and the concussion wave from a missile explosion.

      The openings in front of the panels would have some kind of swing down or roll down doors that could quickly be closed moments before a blast.

      It wouldn't protect against a direct hit, but it would keep the radars from being put out of action by hits that are less than that direct hit.

      Lutefisk

      Delete
    7. The main threat to elevated sensors is fragmentation and a simple Kevlar-type enclosure would negate that.

      Once attacking missiles reach CIWS/SeaRAM range, the main sensors are no longer needed and could be closed/retracted while the self-contained radars of CIWS/SeaRAM take over.

      Delete
  3. I never understood why MBT armor, which seems reasonably good has never been applied to my knowledge on warships : for example the British Challenger 2 was deployed during the Iraq
    war, (120 examples sent) and none was lost to Iraqi fire, only one was destroyed by friendly fire on 25/03/2003 (see Journal of Armored Assault and Heliborne Warfare, vol 5, 7805). Any idea why ? Is it because it is too heavy or something else ?

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    1. Different threats. A tank is tiny in comparison to a wardship with all the crew in a small fighting compartment.

      This means a 1960's HEAT warhead that can melt through 25inchs plus of steel armour to kill the crew would be useless on a battleship where it would just make a small hole.

      Battleship armour piercing shells contain a blasting charge to explode when through the armour to make a much bigger hole in a ship.

      It's the same reason APFSDS rounds work on tanks but wouldn't on ships size.

      Honestly missiles aren't going to be the biggest threats it's going to be bunker buster airdropped bombs dropped by stealth aircraft or large drones a GBU-57A 30,000lb bomb will make short work of any conceivable deck armour.

      The Royal Navy abandoned armour for new ships because in testing no battleship design smaller than a 100,000 tonne behemoth would have the deck armour and torpedo protection to survive late WW2 era airdropped bombs and torpedoes which were vastly larger and more powerful than weapons at the start of the war.

      Delete
    2. "Honestly missiles aren't going to be the biggest threats it's going to be bunker buster airdropped bombs dropped by stealth aircraft or large drones "

      So, you envision aircraft flying directly over a ship, completely undetected, to deliver these bombs?

      "The Royal Navy abandoned armour for new ships because in testing no battleship design smaller than a 100,000 tonne behemoth would have the deck armour and torpedo protection to survive late WW2 era airdropped bombs and torpedoes"

      Do you have any actual data or links to offer?

      Delete
  4. Tank armour successfully defends a few cubic meters of space against RPGs and peer-threats like 120mm shells that weigh under 20kg.
    A ship's armour has to defend a vast hull volume against missiles that travel faster and weigh up to 3000kg.

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  5. Good discussion. I would only add that stability versus weight of armor is a consideration, and add the old saw:"What happens on an Iowa class BB after a Kamikaze hit? Answer: Hold sweepers".

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  6. The armour thicknesses you are listing are very thick.

    The 30,000 tonne+ Alaska class had a maximum 9 inch belt and 4 inch deck.

    The 20,000 tonne+ Des-Moines class heavy cruiser had a maximum 6 inch belt and 3.5 inch belt.

    The armour was also relatively low in the ship.

    The superstructure wasn't armoured to much more than splinter protection because weight high in the ship causes stability issues.

    Armour does need to be brought back but it needs to be a modern version not just slapping loads of steel.

    The Indiana class pre-dreadnought class of battleship had an 18 inch thick belt of Harvey steel armour far thicker than any WW1 or WW2 built US battleship but improvements in armour design more than made up for the difference.


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    1. "The armour thicknesses you are listing are very thick."

      Yes. That's why it provides protection. Do you have a point to make?

      "The armour was also relatively low in the ship."

      As would these be. Aside from stating the obvious, do you have a point to make?

      "The superstructure wasn't armoured to much more than splinter protection because weight high in the ship causes stability issues."

      You're incorrect and you need to study the actual armor arrangement of WWII ships.

      "Armour does need to be brought back but it needs to be a modern version not just slapping loads of steel."

      Yes, that's what the post said.

      Delete
  7. This is such a great discussion and I am in 100% agreement with you. With the recent anniversary of the Iowa turret explosion - boy that accident and the "investigation" make for a hell of a rabbit hole to go down (any thought of you doing an article?) - I've been doing a lot of reading on the last battleships and watching a lot of the battleship New Jersey Museum's YouTube page. The Iowa class and her predecessors were engineering marvels. Your point of giving us an unmatched capability really hit home. We used to rely on capability overmatch through technology. Now that it is much harder to do that, this armor concept would be a game changer.

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  8. Big guns, big armor, lotsa ships. I'd love to see a return to a Navy that can fight and win.

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  9. One thing that would significantly improve the use of void space would be the use of Aerogel fillers instead of just leaving them empty. This would prevent flooding of these spaces when penetrated and would not increase weight significantly, as aerogels are incredibly light (some types are lighter than air by volume).

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    1. Um ... there's a lot of potential problems with that. The gels are extremely porous which means they'd fill with water (flooding). The structure is extremely brittle and susceptible to collapse due to shock, water, etc. They're inherently hydrophilic which means they absorb water, enhancing flooding and disintegration. And so on.

      You might want to go back and review the information on these chemicals and see if you can find any examples of them being used in an application similar to what we're talking about.

      Delete
  10. I find it interesting that giant supertankers added double hulls with relatively small cost increases and steel and hull labor is a much larger fraction of cost than a warship. As far as I can tell from google, only our aircraft carriers have anything like a double hull even though it would be useful for things like limiting torpedo damage.

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    1. That is an unarmored design for a specific threat. CHeck out Norman Friedman's book on carriers. It goes through their protection systems up until we over-classified everything.

      Delete
  11. Maybe armor would protect our ships from launching mishaps -> https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/uss-cleveland-damaged-after-crashing-into-tug-during-launch-navy-admits

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    1. The USS Cleveland was practicing it's Anti-Tug evolution.
      Anti-Tug operation are very useful against a navy that tows it's ships into the fight.
      "Defeat the Tugs and you defeat the Russian Navy."
      I think Beatty said that.

      Delete

    2. CDR ChipApril 20, 2023 at 8:56 PM
      The best news in that article: "Cleveland — which is the last of the 16-strong Freedom class."

      Worst news: That's 16 more than it should have been.

      Delete
    3. BEAT ME TO IT, the dangerous tug boat attacks that could cripple the Freedom class.

      Delete
  12. When discussing armor, don't forget or neglect the value of armored internal bulkheads. Not saying that you are or were, ComNavOps. I think we've had this discussion before and I'm pretty sure I know where you stand. I just want to make sure everybody thinks of that.

    That's one area where the USN has historically been a leader. USS Pittsburgh in WWII got its bow blown off but the watertight integrity provided by internal bulkheads was good enough that it remained afloat to limp back to port. And the blown-off bow section also remained afloat and was nicknamed USS McKeesport.

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    1. From the post,

      "Transverse bulkheads are part of all ships with the number and thickness appropriate for the class of ship."

      Delete
    2. As I said, ComNavOps, I know where you stand on this. I just wanted to make sure everybody was thinking of it.

      Delete
  13. If anything alot of this is common sense; If you can't build them to be as tough as a battleship, at least make it where you know they may be able to take up to x-hits of the type of weapons that would most likely be on the "giving" end of the equation. X-hits with rest being intercepted could mean A. continuing to fight with X hits B. needing to leave the fight but under its own power on Y hits C. Pray hard. Don't want to oversimplify this, but in this supposedly networked world, where if you have the retractable sensors, or at least redundant, with a back-up ability to recieve from an off-ship sensor, aka another ship, the ship could still fight if the damage was not severe. The navy should give this a big thought too on its so called unmanned surface fleet. If you don't need to have sailors, then by god put the $ into tons of steel and weapons with redundant things and it could be controlled at a distance by one of our more "dainty" ships, hell, put all comms gear on a useless LCS, it can be a freedom and just cruise on its diesels and not blow up the combining gears and just direct the USV, which could be a miniature dreadnaught. There you go, new death machine with tons of steel, ERA, Kevlar, protections systems and plenty of offensive weapons.

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    1. "alot of this is common sense"

      It's ALL common sense! The Navy has just forgotten what common sense is.

      " new death machine"

      Careful. While a mega warship with no crew may sound wonderful at first glance, there are some major problems:

      1. The remote control comm link represents a single point of failure that, if lost (physical destruction of the sending or receiving comm antennae) or disrupted (jamming, cyber-attack) would render the entire ship inert and useless (mission kill) unless you envision the ship being the Terminator and taking off on its own on a spree of self-intelligent destruction.

      2. The sending/controlling unit is another point of vulnerability. If the control ship is damaged or destroyed, the remote ship is rendered useless. Of course, it could be possible for another ship to take over the control function but that kind of transfer, in the middle of high end combat, is unlikely to be successful.

      3. With no crew, damage control is not possible and that wonderful new death machine becomes a write-off far sooner than otherwise necessary. Do we really want a mega death machine (multi-billions of dollars) to be an early write-off due to lack of simple damage control? And, no, there's no such thing as automated damage control. Even automatic sprinkler systems generally don't work in a real catastrophe.

      So, does that change your thinking and, if not, how do you address those points I brought up?

      Delete
    2. good points, I think you need to trade off some sophistication for just brute steel and not much thinking on the part of the ship itself. The LCS example as a controlling factor I would envision using Sats to control from a "safe distance", or relay drones, which if the dreadnaught is shooting from 500 miles out, then the LCS would need to be- to be safe- at least that distance again further out, so in excess of at least 1000 miles from target. There is no AI to go all terminator yet. Maybe a better option is a networking sub (prefer not 2.5 billion buck attack subs, but a small sub built to do just that, networking gear) that extends bare minimum above surface controlling antenna (and very slow speed), and you'd need multiple due to being killed on occasion (ouch), but they'd need to be receiving targets from other aircraft or ships or sats/drones. Net net, need multiple controlling factions if you lose one, there are today networked options even in the commercial world (SD-WAN is a type) that is always sending dynamic paths, so you'd be feeding for example two controlling ships constantly, not just a failover. Failover to other asset is instant because it's always feeding it anyway; Also makes an enemy need to constantly scan a huge amount of ocean beyond nailing one asset (let alone decoy recievers). Could be land-lsland based too. Just something to consider and the Pentagon is now putting SD-WAN into some networks. Comm Links have to be triple redundant to your point. Crew damage, that's huge, at best you can have fire suppression and water damage sensor to seal off areas. But don't build a 2 billion $ arsenal ship for the reason you can't control all damage, keep it to a third of that. Personnel are half your cost (supposedly) on operations, so over life of ship, best to put more steel on, cram it full of weapons both defensive/offensive.
      Other option is much lower cost smaller ships but then it's truly expendable, and those still always end up costing 9 figures anyway with today's navy and contractors.

      Delete
  14. I am astounded that we routinely produced heavily armed and armored ships with 30+ knot speed and 5,000+ mile range, but struggle to do so now. What changed?

    I'm speculating, but it seems the two biggest changes since WW2 are sensor requirements and crew accommodation expectations (weapons have changed, but they are still big things that take up space and weight).

    Sensors

    I might be wrong on this one - they were always important, and cutting edge 40's tech may have taken up the same amount of space, weight and (relative) power generation capability, but I don't think so. Every generation of radar (before we even talk lasers) requires a bigger powerplant and a bigger % of the ship.

    Crew Accommodations

    The big one. We used to stack triple bunks anywhere they fit, and be happy if we squeezed a washing machine on board. Here's a quote from 2018 tour of a FREMM (basis for the Constellation):

    "Plush. The crew lives in staterooms, the largest of which are two six-person staterooms for (of course) the Marines and air detachment. Most are four-person staterooms. One-person staterooms are for the embarked admiral, the captain, the executive officer, and the department heads. The rest of the officers are in two and four-person staterooms."

    The Army sleeps in the dirt. I bet the Navy would be happy to sleep triple-bunked (submarines anyone?) if it meant a more capable ship! Why do we need plush staterooms except to drive sailor retention during multi-month deployments (another topic).

    Plush accommodations drive ship volume, more steel, bigger engines, more fuel in a downward spiral that produces today's armed cruise liners.

    Go back to bare-bones warship accommodations and we'll take a big step forward in solving the armor, speed, range trade-offs.

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    1. "struggle to do so now"

      To be clear, we don't struggle to do so; we make no attempt to do so. It's not as if we're trying to armor ships and somehow failing. We're not even trying. We could easily design an armored ship with high speed and great range, IF WE WANTED TO. So, the real mystery is why we've come to believe that armor serves no beneficial combat purpose anymore?

      Delete
    2. I think you are on the right track here. All those ships had relatively high pressure steam powered turbines. They generate an enormous amount of horsepower and are more efficient than today's turbines but take up more space. The upfront cost is also higher.

      Carriers and submarines still use steam power which is why they can fly even though the carriers are huge and the submarines experience extreme drag being completely underwater.

      Delete
    3. All that luxury crew space will come in handy for war time crew sizes. Who says the Navy doesn't think ahead.

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    4. As an old steam engineer, I think you would be surprised at how compact a steam plant can be. Having served on Gearings (cramped), Forrest Sherman/Adams class (same engineering lay out), and Knox class (spacious), steam plants if well maintained are very efficent and durable. You could have a very spacious plant layout on something the size of a Burke.

      Delete
    5. But then we'd have to resurrect the BT rating. That would be untransformational.

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    6. "That would be untransformational."

      Yes! That's exactly what we need ... an untransformation movement. You nailed it !

      Delete
  15. Is there a source for the missile tests on battleship armor? I tried looking it up but I couldn't find much

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  16. It's a bit simplistic to say that the enemy would prioritise different type of missile and/or weapons for different class of ship weight.

    In reality barring the biggest and heaviest types of missiles. Most militaries adopts a standard class of missile capable of sinking anything from a corvette to a cruiser in a single hit or 2.

    So the most likely weapon a corvette would face is not fragmentation warheads, it's a 200kg semi Armor piercing warhead equipped missile fired from another corvette or shore based launcher.

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    1. "It's a bit simplistic to say that the enemy would prioritise different type of missile and/or weapons for different class of ship weight."

      Not really. Just as a an air force would use a bigger bomb to destroy a bigger building and a smaller bomb to destroy a smaller building, so too would an enemy use larger missiles to destroy large ships and smaller missiles for smaller ships. Why would an enemy waste a large, expensive missile on a small patrol boat or, conversely, attempt to sink a carrier with small missiles?

      Given the CONOPS for a corvette, the most likely threat it would face would be helo-launched frag rockets or similar. If it happens to run up against a heavyweight missile with a thousand pound warhead, well, that's just a bad day to be a corvette. If corvettes are facing large missiles routinely then we're using the corvettes incorrectly (CONOPS!).

      "Most militaries adopts a standard class of missile capable of sinking anything from a corvette to a cruiser in a single hit or 2."

      No peer navy does that. The US, for example, uses anti-ship weapons such as LRASM, NSM, Hellfire, Standards, Tomahawk, helo-mounted rockets, etc. China and Russia are similar.

      Delete
    2. Big missile cost lots of time and money to produce, nobody with half a brain would waste them on a corvette unless something has gone very wrong.

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    3. "Big missile cost lots of time and money to produce, nobody with half a brain would waste them on a corvette unless something has gone very wrong."

      And building multiple missiles of different sizes is any better ?

      The harpoon missile has more than 7000 examples built.

      Delete
    4. "if you are just going to keep deleting my response"

      Your comments are pedantic in the extreme and totally unproductive. You're offering nothing that moves the discussion forward. Offer something substantive and productive and they'll stand.

      Delete
    5. "And building multiple missiles of different sizes is any better ?"

      Yes, it is. Multiple sizes and classes of missiles allows for a much larger total inventory of weapons. It allows for a much more economical application of firepower. It allows for multiple sizes of launch platforms.

      Every nation does it which suggests that every nation sees the value in having multiple sizes of weapons.

      Multiple missile sizes is no different than multiple artillery sizes. We have sizes ranging from hand-launched grenades to mortars to lightweight anti-tank guns/rockets/missiles to lightweight artillery to 155 mm artillery to heavyweight MLRS and so on.

      There are many debatable and discussion-worthy subjects on this blog but this isn't one of them.

      Delete
  17. I don't think Armor is really the answer modern explosives are just to much.

    I think the answer exist it just needs expansion. CIWIS and RAM batteries should be multiplied to create redundant/mass defense. To counter Kamkazi strikes AAA batteries were massed. ECM and Decoys would do allot aswell. Here I think Drone ships could have real value bringing mass and distribution as floating magazines, target sponges, etc... without risk of being stolen since they would be amongst the fleet.

    C-Low

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    1. "modern explosives are just to much."

      What makes you say that? Explosives have improved somewhat but not by orders of magnitude.

      Delete
    2. Worded wrong I guess not so much that explosives have changed than going the armor route is a losing battle. Armor maybe doable but the counter would just be heavier loads of explosives or shaped charges like in land war fare. Adding enough armor would require redesigned ships very long lead item compared to anti ship missiles. When the threat was guns on ships up gunning required new ships long lead which could be countered with the next long lead ship with armor. Todays problems are missiles/aircraft which will always have the advantage in lead time over ships.

      Increasing point defense could be augmented into existing ships and designed into future better. As recent as WW2 when aircraft were the threat the answer was not armor but magnitudes of more point defense. A antiship missile is a Kamikaze without the pilot. Drones used as escort decoys, ordinance barges, point defense pickets, etc... would push the saturation levels even more. If it takes a thousand missiles to have a chance to hit a carrier group your talking a massive all out effort that will be easier to see, disrupt, counter, and attrite away long term.

      My point is the goal should be pushing saturation levels up for the enemy.

      CIWIS and RAM work just need to be multiplied by orders of magnitude and they are on the right side of the cost curve. The long range stuff should be saved for the ballistic, hypersonic, and shooters, they fit that cost curve.

      Delete
    3. "the counter would just be heavier loads of explosives or shaped charges"

      You don't seem to have a grasp of the purpose or effectiveness of armor (read Okun!). Setting aside any advances in armor over WWII, even WWII armor is likely proof against any existing missile, currently. WWII battleship armor was designed to defeat supersonic, 2500 lb, armor piercing shells and there are no missiles equivalent to that today.

      You're also missing the point that 'heavier loads of explosives' or shaped charges are not something that is blithely added to a missile for a couple of extra dollars and no other impact. It would require much more massive, redesigned missiles (exactly what you note as a negative for ships!). Those missiles would likely no longer fit into launch cells or on aircraft. What then?

      "ships very long lead"

      You fail to grasp the purpose of a ship. It's purpose is not to counter missiles although that would be one function. The purpose of a ship is to provide OFFENSIVE capabilities. You also fail to grasp the service life of a ship as compared to a one-use missile. The long build time for a ship is more than justified by its enormous capabilities and long service life.

      "missiles/aircraft which will always have the advantage in lead time over ships."

      You're failing to understand that missiles don't just magically appear next the target they're attacking. They have to be delivered by some type of launch platform. In naval warfare, that platform is another ship or aircraft. Those platforms have long build times - as you noted for the defending ship but ignored for the attacking ship/aircraft - and are incredibly expensive. Trying to design ever larger missiles to defeat armor requires a massive penalty by the attacker who has to design new launch platforms at enormous cost, over long development time periods. That million dollar missile that seems so cheap on the face of it is actually incredibly expensive because it requires a very expensive launch platform.

      "the answer was not armor but magnitudes of more point defense."

      No, the answer was a layered defense consisting of aircraft, outer escort ships, inner escort ships, and long/med/short range AA guns on the ships. You seem to be laboring under the belief that defense must only be guns or armor but not both. This is foolish. The best defense is the same as developed in WWII - a layered defense and armor is a critical part of that defense.

      In short, we want to make the enemy work as hard as possible and spend as much money as possible to sink our ships and armor is a critically important part of that effort. Only the Navy would be dumb enough to forego armor!

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  18. Great post CNO!!! The armor discussion has always been buried in detractors who believe missiles are these magical objects that are so much more potent than the "dumb" shells of the battleship age. The fact that ships of that age routinely survived poundings (and continue to serve up offensive and defensive firepower) that would destroy modern ships makes armoring an obvious, if not ignored improvement. Ive always said that answers to problems are more often than not found in the past. Yes, the defense systems should be upgraded and much more dense aboard ships- specifically, the close in systems should be more numerous by a factor of three or so. But- armor is the ultimate last defense that cant be defeated by EW, brilliant terminal maneuvering, etc.
    We know that balanced ships CAN be built with armor, a respectable weapons fit, speed, and range. We've done it in the past, and many of us have done napkin doodles and produced modern ships that check all the boxes. Its not hard. A return to armor could be a big boost to the nation in many ways, including reinvigorating the steel industry, the rail industry, creating more robust builders yards and infrastructure, etc. Of course there would likely have to be subsidies for the industrys to get things going, but the results would be a capable, more survivable navy, and a better infrastructure to build and support it. Yes, the price would be enormous. But what is the cost of one hit mission killed ships at $2B a piece (or more)that cant carry out our nations will, as well as the cost in sailors lives? We've had more than enough transformational, and where has it gotten us?? The tech edge we once had is likely long gone. Its time to look to the past for our next upgrades and designs. Its time for armor!!

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  19. Slightly related thought. Concerning range- there are numbers published for ships old and new. But I have a question: Are there any actual fuel consumption numbers out there to compare?? We see that Burkes for instance, have half or less of the range a comparably sized WWII ship does. But- is it because they consume twice the amount of fuel in spite of carrying the same volume of fuel?? Or is the consumption roughly the same, and we just arent including the same size fuel tanks?? Ive heard "Gas turbines are gas guzzlers", but is that truly the case when compared to a ship powered by multiple boilers??? This seems highly relevant when we make these new/old comparisons, and could help explain the vast shortfall in range when we make them...

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    1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_LM2500#Specification

      Looks like the modern Naval turbines are getting close to what high pressure steam systems can do. Another difference is the steam boilers can use fuel that has 10% more energy per gallon. So it must have been a combination of more fuel, sleeker design, and denser fuel.

      I think the general point still stands that they are removing space from propulsion and fuel to use its for other stuff like crew, helicopters, electronics etc.

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