Monday, November 25, 2024

Armor Against Missiles

There are a few naval topics that just seem to trigger controversy and argument (like battleships) and armor, for unfathomable reasons, is one of them.  Armor would seem to be something that no one could possibly object to.  At its very worst, it mitigates damage and improves survivability and yet some people seem to want to argue against it.
 
One of the reasons for the reaction to armor is that many/most people have a couple of misconceptions which cloud their thinking.  Let’s examine those misconceptions and dispense with them.
 
 
Purpose – So many people seem to think that if armor can’t provide absolute and total invulnerability to every weapon past, present, and future that the armor has no value.  This is, of course, utter nonsense.  Armor does provide immunity to the types of weapons it’s designed to and it provides mitigation to the rest which improves survivability.  This was thoroughly covered in the post, “Armor for Dummies”, so I won’t belabor it further, here.
 
Note that no one has ever claimed that armor can provide total immunity against every threat ever conceived.  Thus, there is nothing to argue on this point and yet so many people illogically attempt to just that.
 
System vs Single Plate – So many people seem to think that armor is a single plate of steel welded onto the side of a ship.  While that has been done in the past, that is not what the majority of WWII armor schemes did.  Note the use of the word, ‘scheme’.  This means that armor was not (is not) a single plate of steel but is, instead, a system of various components acting in a layered effect to achieve mitigation of a weapon’s impact.  As an example, torpedo armor was not a single plate of steel under the waterline;  it was a system of layered bulkheads, voids, and plate that was designed to act as a whole to provide mitigation of the effects of torpedoes.  Thus, voids were ‘armor’.  Similarly, the deck armor of a ship was not a single layer of steel but was a layered system consisting of an upper decapping/trigger layer and one or more main layers to further contain and mitigate the blast effects.
 
In addition to physically separated layers, armor often consisted of layers of materials with different metallurgical properties so that the layers might be (to put it crudely) harder or softer, acting in concert to deplete, absorb, and deflect the missile’s energy effects.
 
We’ve also discussed the importance of transverse bulkheads as part of the overall armor scheme.
 
It should also be noted that every bulkhead in every compartment acts as another layer of armor to contain and mitigate damage effects.  Unlike a tank, which only has one compartment and if you penetrate that you’ve likely achieved a kill, a ship has dozens/hundreds of compartments, each acting as a containment unit to limit the extent of damage.
 
It should be obvious, at this point that simply pointing to a weapon and saying that it can penetrate xx inches of steel is completely missing the concept of an actual armor system.
 
WWII – Yet another misconception is the belief that if we apply armor to a ship today we’ll do it exactly like we did in WWII.  I see this argument repeatedly as people argue that modern missiles with diving or pop up maneuvers will easily defeat deck armor because, in WWII, deck armor was less extensive than side armor.  Well, duh!  In WWII, side penetration was the main threat. Don’t you think that if the main threat today is diving missiles that a modern armor designer would take that into account and design the armor scheme to deal with that?  Wouldn’t we put our emphasis on armoring against overhead threats?
 
Data – A final misconception is that there is any data on modern missile’s effectiveness versus armor.  There are only two data points that I’m aware of:  a long ago test of a ?Harpoon? missile against an unspecified battleship armor plate which resulted in nothing more than scratched plate and a widely repeated but wholly undocumented claim of a Soviet ‘shaped charge’ missile warhead that can penetrate xx inches of steel under unknown conditions.  I flat out don’t believe any Soviet claim.  The Soviet’s number one export was exaggerated propaganda.  Thus, there is no credible evidence to assess the effectiveness of missiles against armor and certainly nothing to assess the effectiveness of missiles against an actual system of armor, as we’ve discussed.
 
 
Conclusion
 
We now understand that armor is a system, or scheme, consisting of many components and that the system acts as a whole to protect the ship.  The ability of a missile to defeat or penetrate one component does not invalidate the overall scheme.  As we noted, the purpose of armor is to mitigate the degree of damage from a weapon.  If that mitigation is in the form of immunity (as in the WWII battleship zones of immunity to plunging fire), that’s great but even weapons that penetrate the ship are mitigated by the additional layers of armored bulkheads, void spaces, plates, etc.
 
Before we close out our discussion, it should also be noted that land armor has made immense strides since WWII.  Naval armor has made almost no strides.  There is no reason why some land armor advances couldn’t be adapted to naval use, resulting in even more effective armor.  Newer armor materials and arrangements such as ceramics, polymers, composites, electric armor, sloped armor, spall liners, spaced armor, reactive armor, etc. ought to be adaptable to naval use.  Again, focusing on the claimed ability of a missile to penetrate xx inches of steel is almost a pointless argument.
 
It should be obvious, now, that most anti-armor arguments are based on misconceptions.  There is absolutely no valid reason not to apply armor to every ship, as appropriate for its size, and every reason to do so.
 
Most importantly in the missile versus armor discussion is the recognition that no one has ever tried to design a naval armor system against modern missiles and yet so many people seem convinced that it can’t be done.  Let’s give it a try!  I see no reason why it can’t be successfully done.  Given the staggering, multi-billion dollar cost of even destroyer size ships, it is mind-bending that we don’t armor our ships.
 

26 comments:

  1. As WW2 was nearing it's conclusion the UK was still looking at how to armour a battleship against the current generation of threats and it was deemed not cost effective.

    Even the designs that ignored the traditional side armour for more deck armour wouldn't work as the thicknesses needed to defend against the latest airdropped bombs made the designs too top heavy.

    The best defence for warships from air attack was first your own aircraft stopping the attack reaching the ships followed by massive fields of overlapping AA fire.

    I would say multiple Aegis ships would handle the overlapping AA fire part if enough ships were grouped together.

    I guess enough aegis ships together could match the AA part but as repeated on this blog often enough the airwings have been left to rot.

    I'm not sure what armour on the small by cruiser or battleship standards current destroyer and frigate designs would stop?

    Cheap anti personnel drones? it isn't going to stop multi tonne missiles or bombs if WW2 battleship armour couldn't not at the current size of naval warships.

    WW2 destroyers like the Fletcher class has splinter protection only between 0.5 and 0.75 inches of steel I don't know how modern kevlar splinter protection on the Burke class would compare.

    But the WW2 destroyer armour couldn't stop 4 inch or larger naval guns damage was mitigated by compartmentalisation.

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    1. Did you even read the post? Doesn't seem like it.

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  2. I still find it strange that land based vehicles seem to get ever more armour to a point it makes them so heavy it makes transporting them difficult and requiring ever bigger fuel hungry engines. Yet navy ships have gone in the other direction even though their size (on a like for like ship, eg old asw frigate vs new asw frigate) has got bigger, which to me (unless im missing something) should be easier to add armour too.

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    1. I think you are possibly on to something here...

      What has been used and faced shots fired in anger since WW2:

      Tanks side: Korea, Vietnam, all the Israeli-Arab conflicts till today!, GW1 and GW2, Ukraine-Russia today!, that's not even all of it.....this is only the "big" conflicts.

      Ships side: apart from 80s Falklands war when Argies fired Exocets, Iraq-Iran naval war should count but how many really study that part of that war in the West???

      So, ships have not really seen that much REAL combat compared to tanks and how much they have been used and had to contentiously adapt? It's not even close, tanks have had to adapt to all kinds of new VERIFIED THREATS were as Navies kind of just can lay back and theorize that AEGIS and SM-2/3/6 will just stop everything.....

      Ex: just look at drones and look HOW FAST armies have moved: we have seen cope cages, extra armor, active jamming, counter drones,etc installed on tanks and IFVs....and look at what the navy is doing....yeah, again, it's not even close in terms of rushing to counter a threat.

      Been reading "Castles of Steel" by Robert J. Massie, it's WW1 navy warfare and it is incredible to see how much damage even pre-dreadnoughts could take and smaller ships like cruisers and destroyers would get pummeled and keep fighting, also to note, some Brits knew that the Germans had better quality ships in terms not just of guns and gunnery but realized that the overall construction and armor was better and I think it did conscious or unconscious make the Brits be far more careful when to engage the Germans.....it's just too bad or thank God, the Kaiser held back his navy and reduced it's effectiveness by being so adverse to losing ships.

      My 2 cents: I would say he didn't want to lose his ships assured he would lose the war....

      Could we face something like that today??? Absolutely!!! make a post or tell people that USA could lose a carrier and look at the responses.....most can't even IMAGINE losing a carrier, ok, let's say we don't lose a carrier but a TICO and 2 DDGs?!? Most people would think you are crazy....would those people suddenly want to fight or say: "nah, we don't want to lose anymore ships, let's go home..."....I'm not so sure OPTION 1 would prevail.

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    2. ATGMs that threaten tanks are a far smaller proposition than warships, and are significantly easier to defeat. The nature of their engagement means that tanks are statistically more likely to be shot in the front, so the armor is focused on the front. This is because tanks will be

      - Advancing into enemy defenses as the breakthrough element
      - Firing in the defense at advancing tanks from dug-in fighting positions
      - supporting the infantry by driving to the target and putting fire on it

      In order to shoot a tank in the sides and rear, you need to actually be to the side and behind the tank, which exposes the ATGM firer, be it an infantry team, light vehicle, or IFV, to being shot at by the tanks before they can fire their shoot. Ambushing is of course an option, but it's worth noting that Soviet doctrine was to conduct map reconnaisance of the advance, identify likely ATGM ambush points, and call in artillery bombardments on those points to suppress ATGM teams (hence Bradley as a protected ATGM carrier and IFV).

      On the other hand, with a ship, the missile can approach from every direction, and missile warheads are an order of magnitude larger than ATGM warheads. Which is why unlike armor, we see a greater emphasis on softkill and hardkill defenses - ECM, decoys, and interceptor missiles fired at horizon-detected AShMs.

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    3. "I still find it strange that land based vehicles seem to get ever more armour to a point it makes them so heavy . . ."

      Tanks don't have to float in water. Ships must.

      What's needed is a proper and honest engineering study of the problem of defending ships, against all the current threats. Not just missiles, but bombs, drones, guns, torpedoes and mines too.

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    4. "Which is why unlike armor, we see a greater emphasis on softkill and hardkill defenses"

      No one is suggesting that this is a one or the other situation. Ship protection requires ALL possible methods: armor, softkill, and hardkill. Too many people take these discussions as a one or the other, exlusive solution. That would be folly. We need ALL viable methods.

      Proponents of soft/hard kill methods need to recognize that there will ALWAYS be attacking weapons that get through and strike ships which is where armor is mandatory.

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    5. "What's needed is a proper and honest engineering study of the problem of defending ships, against all the current threats."

      ??? We know the problem and the solution of ship defense. It's layering. Layered defenses have been proven since long before WWII.

      Now, if you want to study new pieces of equipment to fill any particular defense layer, that's fine but, as we always say, that's for the R&D world.

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    6. Im going to try to be good here and not be to sarcastic here but seriously? Tanks only have frontal attacks?

      Ok, let review maybe I need to be more clear:

      Front attack: APFSDs, HEAT, TOW, HELLFIRE, SAGGER, KORNETS,etc and everything else conventional armies have in inventory. This is the real bad stuff.
      SIDE AND REAR: this is more your ambush stuff so more likely to be RPGs and close range ATGMs. This is more likely to be insurgent attacks.
      TOP: COPPERHEAD AND JAVELIN, again more likely to be high end conventional warfare, the occasion artillery round counts too.
      BELOW: Mines and IEDS, can ruin your day and used by both conventional armies and insurgents.
      NEW ISSUE: drones! Like mines, looks like they will be used by both conventional armies and insurgents.

      So tanks have to face 360 attacks and engineers have to figure out how to protect them as much as possible from a range of attacks, not just frontal attacks. More conventional armies are already implementing ways to defeat or negate drones which are relatively novel, IMO , that's moving pretty fast....

      So lets compare to a USN ship in 2024:
      Front/ TOP attack: I would say this is the top end hyper-sonic attack missile, AEGIS should handle it, we hope since has AEGIS ever really defeated a multiple of hyper-sonic ASMs? let's say YES, MAYBE?
      Side Attack: I would say this is the HARPOON/EXOCET style attack and USN ship should handle it. YES.
      BELOW: this is torpedoes/mines/ ambush IED a la port attack. USN and most Western are from prepared for this, it terms of fighting them off or in terms of ship design. NO!!!!
      Drones: somewhat ready BUT using multi-million dollar missile to shoot down a $50k is an expenditure most navies can afford today. Again, ship design in case of a hit? NO!!!

      USN and most WESTERN ships might be able to defend themselves from high end to medium attacks BUT probably nothing from below AND are incredibly NOT ready to sustain any kind of IMPACT compared to tanks that have continuously had to evolve!!!

      It would be if today tanks ONLY HAD FRONTAL ARMOR and nothing else, would sound crazy but that's the USN and most WESTERN navies today!!!

      And if I understood the post correctly, we are talking about ship design to make ships more survivable with some form of "SYSTEM" of protection which would include armor BUT not exclusively armor....

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    7. "Im going to try to be good here and not be to sarcastic here but seriously? Tanks only have frontal attacks?"

      My dude, you're strawmanning me. Look again at what I wrote - "The nature of their engagement means that tanks are statistically more likely to be shot in the front."

      Look at the side armor profiles of any tank in service. No tank can survive taking a side profile shot from sabot, none of them have enough side armor for that. The front is where the armor is thickest to take hits from sabot. To get that side shot with a tank gun, your tank needs to either be ambushing, or be maneuvering for the kill.

      Yes, you've got threats from ATGMs and RPGs to the side armor, which is hilariously vulnerable on certain tanks. That's why ERA side armor is a thing. But there's no ERA right now that can protect against a tungsten or DU sabot hit.


      "USN and most WESTERN ships might be able to defend themselves from high end to medium attacks BUT probably nothing from below"

      I'm not sure there IS a viable low end attack in terms of an anti ship weapon. Laser guided bombs, being significantly cheaper than antiship missiles, are the logical analogue, but to drop them, a plane has to get hilariously close within the air defense bubble in order to drop those bombs. I just don't see that being a viable attack path. The nature of a naval battle means that the kind of tricks infantry can use to get close to a tank in the bombed out urban ruins of city fighting are not relevant to warships or fighters.

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    8. "No one is suggesting that this is a one or the other situation. Ship protection requires ALL possible methods: armor, softkill, and hardkill. Too many people take these discussions as a one or the other, exlusive solution. That would be folly. We need ALL viable methods."

      To add some nuance to this, there's also the matter of engagement time. As you've calculated previously, an intercept engagement takes place over some dozen seconds to a few minutes. In contrast, at tank combat ranges, time of flight from firing to impact is 1 second AT most. When you have zero situational awareness and warning of an attack, armor becomes even more critical.

      Theoretically, warships are supposed to have superior situational awareness than tanks. There's the radar, EO/IR systesms, the ESM antennas detecting over the horizon emissions of active radar seekers...

      well, theoretically. All systems are only as good as their operators. I'm reminded of the Stark incident.

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  3. "t should also be noted that every bulkhead in every compartment acts as another layer of armor to contain and mitigate damage effects. Unlike a tank, which only has one compartment and if you penetrate that you’ve likely achieved a kill, a ship has dozens/hundreds of compartments, each acting as a containment unit to limit the extent of damage."

    This is quite true, although we should also acknowledge that one of the damage mechanisms of antiship missiles is using the blast overpressure of detonation to forcefully blow open compartments. It's an article of faith that compartmentalisation will sufficiently protect the ship, but I don't believe that it's ever been seriously tested in anything approaching combat situations.

    It feels like we're taking it on faith that our watertight doors are secure enough. We really should be testing that.

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    1. "I don't believe that it's ever been seriously tested in anything approaching combat situations."

      ?????? You do know about the hundreds of ships attacked and damaged in WWII, right? We have more than enough proof that compartmentalization is a vital and highly effective method of ship survival.

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    2. "...the hundreds of ships attacked and damaged in WWII..."

      I've noticed that there is a widely held belief that the velocity of a missile will multiply the destructive power of the warhead.

      Lutefisk

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    3. "a widely held belief that the velocity of a missile will multiply the destructive power of the warhead."

      As we've noted from the various kinetic energy calculations that we've documented on the blog, the speed of a weapon (kinetic energy - not technically correct but we all understand what we're talking about) doesn't contribute all that much destructive energy. If a weapon were shaped correctly (AP shell, as an example), the kinetic energy would assist in the penetration attempt but it's nothing approaching the vaporization effect that is so commonly believed.

      Of course, it is certainly possible to get a large enough weapon (mass of the weapon) at a high enough speed to exert a significant kinetic effect but those are extremely large, extremely heavy, and extremely expensive weapons requiring, as a general statement, large, heavy, expensive launch vehicles. Such weapons are, almost by definition, relatively rare and, thus, a lesser threat on the battlefield though quite damaging if they do get through the defenses.

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    4. As I've tried to make clearer in my post, USN and other navies seemed to have focused almost exclusively on the high to medium threat and response to that to almost complete absence of response to the "low end" threat which will be the more common and destructive one....and this is where a "system" of protection which included armor makes a lot of sense.

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    5. "this is where a "system" of protection which included armor makes a lot of sense."

      You get it!

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  4. I think that it'd be fascinating to see a truly modern armor scheme be designed and evolve. Things like retractable sensors, new takes on citadels and all-or-nothing, and how new composites or other materials might possibly be substituted for standard plate are interesting, if not well beyond my grade school design abilities. But in the past, we've seen how Cleveland-class armor levels were attainable in a Burke-esque size and displacement, which would be magnitudes more survivable than what we have. I wonder also if those other materials might be too expensive or difficult to integrate into somthing ship-sized, that operates in a varying sea-state saltwater environment, versus the simplicity of thick steel. Of course, I'd certainly add huge amounts of close-in weapons to supplement our heavy reliance on high end AAW. Having a mix of anything less than four RAM/"whiz" per ship seems criminally foolish.
    I think that the lack of torpedo protection is arguably our current biggest shortcoming, although I'm honestly unsure of how high that threat level truly is, and some serious analysis into that is needed. If we were to reintroduce an armor scheme into ships, maybe it'd be a balance of sturdy hull, with a citadel protecting the important bits, but minimally upgraded (splinter protection) superstructure, with retractable or protected sensors being out of reach(??). That might give us ships that are guaranteed to get home, although still mission-killable?
    No matter what the finished scheme looks like , we certainly need to look at returning some kind of protection to ships, and phase it in as we rebuild the infrastructure to do so.

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  5. "Data – A final misconception is that there is any data on modern missile’s effectiveness versus armor."

    Probably the closest right now is the damage to ships off Yemen.
    This isn't armor, per se, but it would be interesting to see what goes through a couple layers of 3/4" steel, or a dozen layers of containters.

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    1. Interesting, perhaps but useful, no. There are many different types of materials that are generically called 'steel' - the 'HY' series, for example. Armor, even dating back to WWII, is a special type(s) of steel and commercial ships are not built using it so any data would not be applicable. So, interesting but not useful.

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    2. Maybe not immediately useful as direct knowledge in that sense, but I'd expect that the information could be applied from the steel used to HY steel's characteristics enough in order to create predictions that could be tested for accuracy without sending a missile into a very large sample.

      Which you'd think someone is doing in a lab already (I know, wishful thinking).

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  6. "If that mitigation is in the form of immunity (as in the WWII battleship zones of immunity to plunging fire), that’s great but even weapons that penetrate the ship are mitigated by the additional layers of armored bulkheads, void spaces, plates, etc."

    Displacement wise, the Yamato and Mushashi were the largest battleships of WW2. The Mushashi sank after being struck by some 19 torpedoes and 17 bombs. I doubt an Iowa-class battleship could survive that many hits.

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    1. "I doubt an Iowa-class battleship could survive that many hits."

      Do you have any factual basis for that statement? Do you even have any detailed understanding of the Japanese battleship's armor scheme?

      More to the point, what's your point?

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  7. I've always been pretty cynical about the idea of ship armour, but the more you talk about it the more I'm convinced. After all, armoured vehicles have the survivability onion as a concept, and ships use every other layer but preventing penetration. What's really interesting about the onion is that is shows that armour is actually just a subset of how vehicles defined by their armour survive!

    Just stopping an Exocet who's warhead failed would have saved the HMS Sheffield. A turn to prevent a side impact and avoid penetration while the missile did explode saved the HMS Glamorgan. And however awesome top end hypersonic AS missiles might be, it will likely be swarms of missiles more like an Exocet that do the damage once the SM6s and Asters have gone...

    https://topwar.ru/uploads/posts/2016-03/1457974539_fcs-onion-skin.jpg

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    1. "the more you talk about it the more I'm convinced."

      You grow wiser, grasshopper!

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    2. I believe the more recent assessment of the loss of Sheffield is that the missile did in fact explode.

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