Monday, September 2, 2024

MEU vs. Army/Air Force Rapid Response

MEUs (Marine Expeditionary Units) currently deploy without tanks, artillery, or heavy mortars.  Thus, they are no different than light, air mobile infantry in terms of firepower and, barring dumb luck that a crisis just happens to break out right next to them, are much slower to respond to a global crisis, requiring days or weeks to reach the area of concern.
 
One of the limitations of a MEU is that, contrary to popular impressions, a MEU cannot conduct an opposed landing although, presumably, they could deal with minor resistance.
 
Now, consider the Army’s global crisis response units which are supported by Air Force transports and can deposit troops anywhere in the world in 24 hours. 
 
A common objection to the Army as the global crisis response force is that they must have a secure airfield to land and that is not a sure thing and might even be considered unlikely.  However, it should be noted that the airfield requirements are pretty minimal with dirt strips being adequate.  From the AF fact sheet about the C-17, for example, 
The design of the aircraft (high-lift wing, slats, and externally blown flaps) allows it to operate through small, austere airfields. The C-17 can take off and land on runways as short as 3,500 feet (1,064 meters) and only 90 feet wide (27.4 meters).
 
In addition, the Army does have the capability to seize an airfield.  The 2nd Ranger battalion, 75th Ranger regiment is specifically tasked with airfield seizure.  Of course, an airfield is not even absolutely necessary as troops can be parachuted in.
 


In fact, once upon a time, the Army had some fairly significant airborne armor support with the ability to air-unload M551 Sheridan tanks using the LAPES (Low Altitude Parachute Extraction System) method (an impressive operation readily viewable on Youtube!) or medium altitude multi-parachute drops.  Similarly, I’m aware that the Army conducted Stryker air drops, at one time.  I don’t know whether the Army still maintains such a capability, or not.
 
LAPES - Sheridan Air Drop


Stryker Parachute Drop


 Up until around 2014, airborne forces also included artillery.  From Wiki, 
1st Battalion (Airborne), 321st Field Artillery Regiment maintained a full capacity to provide 155mm howitzer fires anywhere in the world within 18 hours in support of the 82d Airborne Division and while supporting other global responsibilities. The unit had the unique ability to employ 155mm howitzer platforms through a "Howitzer Heavy Drop Package" capability which essentially allowed for the weapon system to be dropped from an aircraft while its paratroopers would then place the weapon into action.

Again, I don’t know whether the Army still maintains airborne artillery capability.
 
Air Dropped 105 mm Howitzer


The following units are considered to be rapidly deployable.  I don’t follow Army matters that closely so there may be others.
 
- XVIII Airborne Corps 
  • 3rd Infantry Division
  • 10th Mountain Division
  • 82nd Airborne Division
  • 101st Airborne Division
- 75th Ranger Regiment - Can deploy can deploy one Ranger battalion within eighteen hours of alert notification.[1]
 
 
Discussion
 
It is clear that the Army/AF can provide firepower and numbers equal to, or greater than, a MEU and with much quicker response times.  Given the Marine’s elimination of tanks and a great deal of artillery and mortars, one can’t help but wonder why we don’t eliminate the MEUs and use Army units as our crisis response force.
 
One of the key aspects of this discussion is armor.  At one time, the MEU deployed with tanks which offered a justification for the use of MEUs.  Unfortunately, the Marines eliminated their tanks several years ago – along with heavy mortars and much of their artillery - and that justification has now vanished.
 
In light of the Marine’s ill-advised move away from being a medium weight combat force and toward being a light infantry force, we need to re-evaluate the rationale for MEUs.  Add to that the cost of acquiring, maintaining, and operating a fleet of amphibious ships to give the MEUs something to ride around on and the rationale looks very suspect.
 
 
 
_____________________________
 
Note:  I’m trying to assemble a current list of the combat equipment of a deployed MEU.  As best I can tell, this is the current list: 
 
7 to 16  Light Armored Vehicle  
15         Assault Amphibious Vehicle      
6          155mm howitzer: M777 
8          M252 81mm mortar       
63         Humvee           
 
That’s not much in the way of firepower.  Anyone have any modifications to the list?  In particular, I’m very unsure that MEUs deploy with any artillery, today.  Anyone know?
 
 
_____________________________
 
[1]Special Operations Forces Reference Manual (Fourth ed.). MacDill AFB, Florida: Joint Special Operations University. June 2015. pp. 78–82. ISBN 9781933749914. Archived from the original on 28 March 2017. Retrieved 27 March 2017.

68 comments:

  1. The Army further mantains the 11th Airborne Div and the 173rd Airborne Bde. The 173rd is fullyairborne qualified which includes artillery. 3 or 4 years ago the 82nd Div dropped LAV25s.

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    1. 82nd would have Strykers not LAVs. Same lineage, generational difference in the guts plus I don't think Stryker is fully amphibious?

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  2. In Army, only ABCT have tanks, SBCT and ICBT have none.

    Army/Air Force IRF are also lightly armed so they can be deployed quickly:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immediate_Response_Force

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/82nd_Airborne_Division

    They are not designed to fight intense battles upon arrival but to deal with civil unrest, anti-terrorism, ... etc. Send heavily armed ground force require send not only tanks, armored vehicles, ...but also fuel, ammunitions, supporting vehicles, ... etc.

    US Army heavily relies on close-in air support under assumption that US have air supremacy. Unlike Soviet style armies (Russia, Ukraine, ... even China), US Army lack field air defense thus cannot fight without air supremacy. Russia's Tor-II and China's HQ-17A are very competent field air defense missiles capable of firing missile while moving and kill low flight targets thus they can fight even without air cover.

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    1. HQ-17A has better radars but each Tor-2 vehicle carries 16 missiles (HQ-17A only 8). China purchased Tor-1 long ago from Russia and asked licenses to produce more in China but Russia rejected. China then started developing their own base on two battalions of Tor-1 purchased from Russia. HQ-17 is its first product. With further improvement, HQ-17A was born. On Russia side, continue developing Tor-1 to Tor-2.

      Both HQ-17A and Tor-2 can combat while moving. HQ-17A can also fire missiles from other vehicles without complete system. Except light brigades (less than 1/3), all brigades have either HQ-17 or HQ-17A. Army corporations operate HQ-16 variants mid range SAM. S-300, HQ-9 variants, S-400 are operated by theater commands.

      Back to Soviet days, they paid lots of attentions on army to fight without air superiority. Pentagon has realized this short coming, SHORAD is a recent development but still fall short of Russia and Chinese products in technologies plus weak firing power. Worse, production is very slow.

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  3. Sorry, but all US light divisions (including Airborne) will get an armoured component as divisional asset in the coming years with the delivery of the M10 Booker. At the same time the US Army is investing in air defence. In the end every airborne or naval infantry force structured as entry force can't survive on it's own, as it need follow up support from other units and enablers. You should read up on the planned Transformation of the US Army which is beeing implemented.

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    1. "You should read up on the planned Transformation of the US Army"

      No disagreement but just a caution. The military has a rich history of plans that never come to fruition. The Navy publishes a new transformational plan every couple of months and they last about a week!

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    2. Currently, Army has 3 types of brigades - ABCT, SBCT, IBCT, include Army National Guard. SBCT and IBCT have no tanks. Each army division has at least one airborne brigade. No combat drones in brigade level (only reconnaissance ones). You can see Army relies more on helicopters than tanks plus Air Force's close-in ground supports.

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    3. "delivery of the M10 Booker"

      Hopefully that will go better than the delivery of the 32 Zumwalts, the 55 LCS, the EFV, the many proposed Bradley replacements, the LCS modules, and so on!

      Delete
  4. Of note, at least when I last went through War College, there is a distinction between employing Marines on foreign shores and using the Army. It dates back to sailing ship days, and, as I recall, basically says using Marines is not an invasion per se.

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    1. "basically says using Marines is not an invasion per se"

      A distinction without a difference?

      Delete
  5. No need to worry abut the future of the Marines Corps. They're busy transofming into an invisible, island hopping, anti-ship jauggernaut :)

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  6. The Army and USAF did a test/breaking a record back in the 80's where they dropped 4 M551 and 73 paratroops from on C-5B. I don't think they ever seriously looked at it for operational use but the capability is there.

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  7. Airborne ops assume no enemy air defenses or even drones. Long-range artillery is also a threat because a landing zone or captured airfield will be seen miles away and get hammered.

    Note there have been no airborne ops in the entire Ukraine war.

    The C-17 landing specs shown are for empty aircraft. They only use dirt strips in an emergency or PR stunt because the dirt ingested clogs up and may damage engines.

    A MEU should have 5-inch gun support from ships and six F-35s and a dozen Cobra attack helos in support.

    Moving people and stuff by air is only half the problem. A MEU carries 15 days of supply with another 30 days arriving from Prepo ships. An airborne force carries 3 days.

    Look at all the transports the USAF has in use. Most are already dedicated to peacetime support mission, lots more are in maintenance. The USAF would struggle to support a light brigade in combat, and evacuating wounded is difficult and has its own urgent transport needs in a crisis.

    MEUs should admit they are really peacetime "show the flag" troops and for humanitarian aid and non-combat evacs. They can't do forcible entry unless its a local militia with just rifles.

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    1. "They only use dirt strips in an emergency"

      An air assault would certainly qualify!

      "Airborne ops assume no enemy air defenses"

      That's kind of what modern maneuver warfare is! You find a weakly defended spot that is either the focus of the operation (such as interdiction) or can become the entry point for follow on forces (such as seizing an airfield).

      "Most are already dedicated to peacetime support mission, lots more are in maintenance."

      In a war, NONE would be dedicated to peacetime support missions and as many as needed would be pushed through maintenance to support an operation.

      "The USAF would struggle to support a light brigade in combat"

      The Air Force would support whatever is required. It merely needs to determine the number of transports needed. Recall the Berlin Airlift. Obviously, we're not going to attempt to support a major, sustained invasion via airlift. The kinds of rapid response operations that a MEU or Army unit would be involved in would be relatively small and/or intended to establish an entry point for heavier, follow on forces (for example, port seizure, as I keep suggesting as the Marine's core mission).

      "MEUs should admit they are really peacetime "show the flag" troops and for humanitarian aid and non-combat evacs. "

      If that's the case, we don't need a MEU/ARG. A single, small ship and a company or two ought to be sufficient for those types of operations.

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    2. Do you think the Air Force is going to risk the Strategic Airlift (the C-17 and C5) fleet in a contested environment? Especially while there are no replacements even on the drawing board. Same problems and benefits +- that the Navy and Marines have.

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    3. "Do you think the Air Force is going to risk the Strategic Airlift"

      Of course they will. Do you understand what war is? EVERY operation in war is a risk. If you risk nothing, you win nothing.

      Even not risking is a risk. For example, if we hadn't risked our carriers at Midway we'd have run the risk of Midway being conquered.

      You risk when you believe you have the potential to inflict greater losses on the enemy than what you will receive. This was, literally, Nimitz's order to Spruance at Midway.

      An asset that can't be risked is of no value in combat.

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    4. I think the point that is being overlooked is that the Air Force does not really have the strategic airlift to conduct major force movements by air. It has only 52 C-5s and 222 C-17s and these significantly outrange the tactical aircraft that should be tasked to support them. They're essentially going to be flying solo into harm's way. Trying to move an armor division by air is going to eat up a lot of those aircraft, and a division-sized jump imparts an opportunity cost in terms other things you could be using those aircraft for.

      it basically begs the question of what would be better utilisation of the strategic airlifters: dropping in a paratrooper division to fight on their own, or bringing in the follow on forces for said paratroopers.

      Ideally, the best case would really be to secure a regional airbase that would allow the paratroopers to be deployed by C-130s, of which we have 300; using theater airlifters for the parachute drop means we're not conflicting with the strategic airlifters, which can be used to ferry in the heavy weapons, vehicles, and follow on forces. Of course, this takes time to arrange, which is not necessarily a luxury we all have...

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    5. "Trying to move an armor division by air"

      Who's suggesting that???? This post and discussion is about rapid response using a MEU or, alternatively, Army/AF. Rapid response involves, by definition, smaller units, not entire divisions.

      Delete
  8. Marines need to abandon light infantry to airborne forces and refocus on being a medium infantry.

    That means tanks, heavy artillery, and heavy mortars.

    That means the LHAs/LHDs and LPD-17s are useless to Marines, because they have to operate too far out, from which there are no viable connectors to move tanks, heavy artillery, and heavy mortars ashore.

    That that the amphibious force must be reconfigured as smaller, cheaper, varied-purpose ships along the lines of post-WWII amphibious squadrons.

    That means that an "amphibious force" without LSTs is not an amphibious force.

    That means that the LHAs/LHDs and LPD-17s either need to be parked or to be dedicated to a new purpose. I don't think the Navy can park 25 multi-billion dollar ships without incurring substantial opposition in congress. I have proposed alternative uses for each--HII ABM/BMD ships for the LPD-17s and interim Lightning Carriers for the LHAs/LHDs until a Kitty Hawk/Midway class of CVs can be built to replace them. Neither of those ideas is perfect, and I recognize that each has its faults, but I can't think of anything better. If you can, please post. Don't focus on this last paragraph in responding to this post. That's trying to make the best out of a bad situation. Instead, please focus on the preceding comments about the Marines and the amphibious force.

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    1. "I don't think the Navy can park 25 multi-billion dollar ships without incurring substantial opposition in congress."

      Are you sure about that? They've retired or idled most of the LCS and Congress had no objection. The Navy is planning to retire some 50 ships over the next few years and build only some 20 or so combat vessels. The Navy built the Zumwalt class without a main weapon and Congress was quite happy.

      Are you sure?

      "I have proposed alternative uses"

      What you haven't addressed is the opportunity cost of those alternative uses. The money spent operating, maintaining, and crewing those ships for relatively little combat return on the investment can't help but make one want to examine better uses for the money. For example, I'd much rather use the funds to buy mines, torpedoes, add a heavy torpedo capability to Burkes/Constellations, increase the size of existing air wings, develop/buy small stealth recon drones for shipboard use, design and build ASW corvettes, buy more LRASMs, and ... well, I could continue listing better uses indefinitely. All of those things would provide a much better return on the investment than trying to make a lightning carrier into something useful. Even the BMD-LPD could be better done by linking a missile barge with an existing Aegis ship.

      "because they have to operate too far out,"

      No they don't! That's just a choice a timid, risk-averse Marine/Navy leadership made. Our Aegis ships are designed to defeat saturation missile attacks. That's certainly more than enough capability to enable inside-the-horizon amphibious assaults.

      Given everything the Navy/Marines have been wrong about (which is, literally, everything!), why would you believe them about being unable to operate inside-the-horizon?

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    2. We urgently need more sealift ships so turn the LPD-17s over to the sealift command after stripping out what is valuable to other ships and man with 50 civilian crewmen.

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    3. LSTs will lessen the number of beaches available for landings, will move units around slower with fewer supplies. I'll agree and get to our connector problem.

      We might need a smaller amphib. Sal M has suggested ships about like the special ops ship MV Ocean Trader. Cheaper, useful. He also stresses the value of connectors rather than beaching the ship.

      I think the Marines are on track with going lighter and embracing unmanned. JLTVs with NSM and Tomahawk. They are also working on an unmanned Himars light enough to move via CH-53K. Their gear needs to move on KC-130Js and ideally 53Ks. All of their new air defense can move in this manner,

      We do need to reexamine our connectors and now is a great time to do so. LCU is too big, slow, deep draft. LCAC is expensive with a big footprint. Both are late. LCAC certainly can do many things other connectors can't. Nothing we have could provide any dual use in a river campaign should we ever find one again like in Iraq where we refused the contest entirely.

      France is now building EDA-S which is like a smaller MSV-L that could fit 4 in a 2 LCAC well deck similar to LCM-8s but with more payload, roll on roll off bother stern and bow. Somewhat faster at 16 knots. 1 meter draft, 300nm range. I'd rather have these than LCUs.

      I would also say we need an assault landing craft. CB90, Jehu, raptor etc deliver only troops with gear they can carry. We need a landing craft that is fast and can deliver any of that assault gear that can now fit on a KC-130J. I would borrow the powertrain from the new 40' PBs which the Marines LRUSV is based upon. Such a design would fit about 6 boats in a 2 LCAC well deck. Its also Cummins 6.7L diesels so its plenty common enough.

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    4. "I think the Marines are on track with going lighter and embracing unmanned. JLTVs with NSM and Tomahawk."

      So who do you see the Marines fighting with just very light infantry and some unmanned vehicles?

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    5. "CB90, Jehu, raptor"

      I realize that you are not proposing that we copy these craft, but there is one additional consideration that I haven't seen mentioned.

      All of these craft have a rather narrow front ramp which requires the troops to exit single file. If you are actually doing an assault against people shooting at you, you want to get off as quickly as possible and disperse. Single file probably isn't the best way to do that.

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    6. "CB90, Jehu, raptor"

      Check out the new Finnish Otu Class by Kewatec. https://www.bairdmaritime.com/security/naval/naval-auxiliary-support/vessel-review-u501-finnish-navys-newest-workboat-to-perform-logistical-support-duties

      That is about the size. Theirs is a little too utilitarian. Ditch the berthing, galley, and crane making the wheelhouse smaller.

      Other inspiration would be the Brix 5216 since it uses 3 Cummins 6.7 and has the pilot house off to the side. https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=-OQZq7qWGEc

      Let it be a landing craft for vehicles and develop a drop in or bolt on weather shelter to move a reinforced platoon ashore. Look at Watercat M12 and M11. Basically the same boat where they add the composite weather shelter and stretch the 12. https://www.marinealutech.com/products/watercat-m12/

      My goal would be a ramp as wide as a KC-130Js.

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    7. So who do you see the Marines fighting with just very light infantry and some unmanned vehicles?

      Their changes aren't done yet. If they can fit a Tomahawk on a JLTV they could mount a quad packed ER-GMLRS. Really if they can manage 2 NSMs they might fit 8. I am sure weight would be the limiting factor.

      Those JLTVs that mount 2 Stingers with the 30x113mm can also mount a Javelin. I would probably rather see that turret on the ACV and new Recon vehicle. 30x173mm is great but without elevation and an air burst round they are going to have some problems.

      I could still see the Marines adopting a Centauro II, but more and more I am not certain of the need. We need more and more UAVs and loitering munitions. Speed, ability to hide, ability to sustain longer with less logistics. Shoot and scoot on a massive scale.



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    8. "narrow front ramp which requires the troops to exit single file"

      Correct! A landing craft under fire needs to discharge the troops en masse. Not that I've done an extensive search but I have yet to see a craft that meets that requirement and would, therefore, be suitable as a landing craft.

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    9. "Their changes aren't done yet. "

      That's nice but, again, who do you see them fighting? What you're describing would seem to fit only a very limited combat scenario.

      Shooting off a couple of odd missiles is pointless. It will require massed missile attacks to overwhelm Aegis type defenses. How do you see that happening given the Marine's new small unit structure? How do you see the Marines getting their over-the-horizon targeting? How do you see the Marines transporting their trucks to the envisioned isolated islands without being detected since the LAW appears not to be fast or stealthy?

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    10. "That means that an "amphibious force" without LSTs is not an amphibious force."

      Are you sure you clearly understand the role of an LST? They are not part of the initial assault. The provide follow on and sustainment ONCE THE BEACH HAS BEEN SECURED. If you want to call that part of the amphibious force, go ahead but recognize that they are not part of the initial assault. LSTs would be very useful but they are not the solution to all our amphibious woes.

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    11. "turn the LPD-17s over to the sealift command"

      That's an interesting idea. I'm not sure exactly what 'cargo' you envision them hauling (troops? vehicles? supplies? everything?) but the idea of a slightly stealthy transport ship with some defensive weaponry could make an effective combat transport.

      Care to expand on your thought? I'd love to hear more about it.

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  9. That also means that the USN needs to be able to provide adequate NGFS (5-inch, 8-inch, and preferably 16-inch guns) and close air support to any amphibious operation.

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    1. ER-GMLRS. Fire off the flight deck of the amphib if need be. Better than that 5" gun taking a 2.4 billion dollar primary AAW asset so close to shore. I'd also say quad packk them in Mk 42 canisters. I wouldn't put them in destroyers, I'd mount them on USVs like Mariner and Ranger so that can move fast and close to shore, unload, and boogie back to reload.

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  10. I also think MEUs need to focus on 1) small amphib ops that they conduct independently, and 2) forming the first wave of assaults by much larger (army) forces.

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    1. "MEUs need to focus on 1) small amphib ops that they conduct independently"

      Doctrinally, a MEU cannot conduct opposed landings. Given the classic 3:1 superiority required for an attacker to succeed, that would mean that a MEU could only attack a couple of companies or a significantly understrength battalion. That's a pretty narrow, unlikely niche scenario. Is that sufficient justification for maintaining MEUs and ARGs? Note, an amphibious assault probably requires more than a 3:1 advantage due to the inherent difficulties in amphibious assaults.

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    2. "forming the first wave of assaults by much larger (army) forces."

      What would the Marines bring to the table that makes them somehow inherently better at the first wave than the Army would be?

      I'm not aware of any example in WWII where this was done. There were cases of Marines and Army both participating in an assault but not a case of Marines comprising the first wave and Army the following waves. I also know of cases where the Marines conducted an assault and some weeks later were relieved by Army troops but that's not this case.

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    3. "What would the Marines bring to the table that makes them somehow inherently better at the first wave than the Army would be?"

      Marines should as least in theory be more trained in amphibious landings. There are some unique things that the first wave has to accomplish to help the others get ashore (been 50 years since I've done a landing so don't remember specifics). If we trained that way, with Marines doing smaller assaults and first wave of larger assaults, I would expect proficiency to increase.

      I'm thinking in terms of major paradigm shifts for large parts of the military:
      - Fewer and shorter Navy deployments (but not yet ready to go all the way to none, despite your arguments).
      - Airborne to be light infantry and Marines to focus on medium expeditionary infantry and special ops.
      - Combine Air Force and Space Force into Aerospace Force (if nothing else, to get rid of those stupid Space Force uniforms)
      - If the Air Force doesn't want to do close air support, transfer that mission to the Army
      - Marines to develop standards for asymmetric warfare and integrated air/ground/sea operations in littoral areas
      - SOCOM to become a Marine commando outfit, supported by SEALs, Green Berets, and AFSOC

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    4. "Marines should as least in theory be more trained in amphibious landings."

      What does that mean? What, specifically, would/should they be better at?

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    5. "Doctrinally, a MEU cannot conduct opposed landings."

      So we should simply discontinue amphibious forces altogether.

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    6. There is plenty of war inland of the beach that is not on the beach in this world.

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    7. "So we should simply discontinue amphibious forces altogether."

      That's what I've been saying! Although for strategic reasons rather than flawed doctrine.

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    8. The Army conducted more amphib ops in World War II than the Marines. The Army had 22 divisions fighting in the Pacific while the Marines had just 6.

      Inchon in Korea was led by the Marine 1st Division and followed up by the Army's X Corps.

      The 1st Marine Division landed at Peleliu and was quickly chewed up losing more than half its strength. It was withdrawn and the US Army's 81st Division was sent to finish the job. The American force was four times larger but suffered just as many casualties. The landing was completely unnecessary after MacArthur landed at Leyte, but the Marines had prepared this operation for months and the troops were embarked so insisted on landing anyway even though the Navy task force commander tried to cancel it. Here is a short video about this little known disaster.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgYnwxChEkM&t=23s

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    9. Connectors are a bad idea, except for military contractors pushing expensive ideas. Look at the LPD-17.
      https://www.g2mil.com/Devo-Amphibs.htm

      Half the ship is used to carry expensive "connectors" that provide no combat power themselves. LCUs are great because they are theater ships. Big amphibs can carry them overseas, but after that they operate alone. So for a landing they load up ammo and supplies at a regional staging area and sail for a few days to the landing site, offload, then return to the big amphibs or cargo ships offshore to reload and land again. And the big ships have more stuff because didn't carry LCUs or other huge "connectors". If the Navy had LCUs based in Italy, they could carry cargo anywhere in the Med.

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    10. "Connectors are a bad idea"

      Well, that depends on your definition and use case. For example, the WWII Higgins boat, one type of connector, was absolutely vital for amphibious assaults. Larger connectors, as defined and used today, are generally meant to transport sustainment supplies rather than the initial troops in a landing as the Higgins boat did.

      We need to distinguish between the initial assault wave connectors and any sustainment vessels that are termed connectors.

      Thus, LSTs and LCUs and the like are sustainment vessels not assault connectors.

      Note, the WWII LST was not normally part of the initial assault waves but, instead, provided follow on troop, equipment, and supply sustainment.

      One of the major 'lacks' of today's amphibious fleet is a Higgins boat equivalent. We have AAV/ACV which can only transport a small portion of ship's troops and are a one-way vehicle that doesn't return to the ship for additional troops, remaining on shore and being used as a poor man's APC instead.

      The LCAC is far too large and few in number to constitute a viable sustainment connector. They will quickly fail due to combat attrition, damage, or mechanical failure (they're finicky machines, by all accounts). That's not acceptable or viable for a sustainment craft.

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    11. I've argued for years that Marine landing forces need some Mark VI boats for support. An LHD can carry them in the well deck. They are fast and can engage the enemy with medium weaponry, land a dozen Marines, and rescue people in the water.

      I like LSTs because they can't be blown out of the water by drones and anti-tank missiles that can blast small craft. An LST can take two dozen small hits and even large hits and keep steaming toward shore.

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    12. Why soak up well deck space with a Mk VI when the 40' PB could probably be launched from the ship's crane like the 11m RHIBS? especially if they are LRUSVs instead and unmanned. They could easily be made as or more lethal than a Mk VI.

      Our other real challenge is the ACV and Recon vehicle are way too slow to the beach and so far as I know can't fight from the water. Beyond working on a smaller connector, I realize the real goal might be an unmanned connector where you can control it from the vehicle being transported. Smaller, more numerous boats that are very low profile, allowing field of fire for the vehicle transported. There would need to be a new way to secure the vehicle in transit for fast release as the boat reaches shore.

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    13. "40' PB"

      To do what? A tiny boat with a couple machine guns is very limited in capability. It might be useful as some sort of Coast Guard boat but what do you see it doing in combat?

      We're trying to gear up for a war with China. What role do you see a 40' boat playing in a war with China?

      "control it from the vehicle being transported."

      This reeks of technology for the sake of technology. You're familiar with the concept of chains (a kill chain, for example)? A landing craft with a vehicle can be considered a delivery chain. The more links you have in the chain, the more likely it is to fail. The key to successful combat is simplicity. A landing craft should be as simple as possible: engine and rudder. Adding a fit-every-vehicle, universal control interface for remote control to a landing craft is just begging for the delivery chain to fail. The universal interface also needs to somehow disable the vehicles control system so that the vehicle isn't trying to drive around the landing craft!

      An engine with a throttle and rudder is the proper solution.

      By the way, how do you get the unmanned landing craft back off the beach and return to its ship once the remote control vehicle is unloaded? And, if you have a mechanism to do that (like, say, a boat operator with manual controls) then you didn't need the remote vehicle, did you?

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    14. An unmanned landing craft would literally be the simplest landing craft possible which is why the idea popped up as I was test driving cars.. Every car in the world can now enhance or replace a driver's ability. Our future manned vehicles will be able to control UAVs, there is no reason they couldn't control a USV they happen to be riding on. Also, UAVs already have a return to base when they get disconnected. It could literally head back to the ship just like any other USV of which there are many out there now. Control could return to the ship upon approach if need be.

      40' PB could be made to mount what they have already placed on LRUSV if need be. 8 round her0-120 launcher. 60km range, 4.5kg anti tank warhead. Seems useful for that capability to arrive before or with the first wave. I'd also point out the forward mount on the 40'PB can mount an RWS for an M-2 so my guess would be that a RWS for 30x113mm isn't out of the realm of possibility which can introduce air burst rounds 2x Stinger or 1x Javelin. Also, the boat is actually 44 feet.

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    15. "unmanned landing craft would literally be the simplest landing craft possible"

      No, no it wouldn't. A landing craft that could be controlled by remote would require a computer, software, control cables to an electronic interface module, additional control cables to the remote vehicle, electronically actuated and remote controlled actuators and servos to operate the throttle, rudder, and whatever else needs movement, onboard sensors for position and speed feedback to the remote control vehicle, etc. Alternatively, a landing craft could have none of that and just an operator with a throttle and steering wheel.

      I'll repeat, in combat, K.I.S.S. rules. All else fails ... and costs more money. There is no advantage gained from an unmanned, remote controlled landing craft.

      When you reach the beach, you don't want to spend time disconnecting wiring harnesses and control cables.

      The remote control capability also adds complexity and cost to EVERY vehicle.

      This is a bad idea from every angle!

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    16. "her0-120 launcher. ... Seems useful for that capability to arrive before or with the first wave."

      From the manufacturer's website describing how the system operates:

      "The operator locates targets, ‘investigates’ them with a gimbaled Electro-Optic & Infra-Red camera, chooses direction, angle, and timing of attack."

      If the operator is aboard the boat, using a camera for target detection, the range is limited to line of sight which would be several hundred yards into the beach, perhaps.

      Has anyone tested the ability of this system to operate in an electronically contested environment?

      Are a few missiles significant in an opposed landing? In WWII, we fired tens of thousands of large caliber naval shells at the beach prior to an assault. Will a few missiles with a ten pound warhead have any significant effect?

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    17. KISS - Fly by wire is over 50 years old. I had a HUD on a kia 2 days ago. You just described what simple has been for a very long time. Same tech is in every assembly line built that past several decades. Sure, government will make it hard, but its not. Its literally why these type of things are slowly gaining traction.

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    18. "Ability, along with extended-range Beyond Line of Sight (BLOS) fire-power."

      "The Hero-120 also enables ‘transfer of control’ from the operator to a forward-deployed force that can receive control over the munition and fully utilize it for its missions."

      Nothing says control can't pass to another UAV crew with eyes above. Hopefully we might also have BUDS, Seals Force Recon on the ground.

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    19. “We’re trying to gear up for a war with China…”
      We seem to be gearing up for a conflict in the Middle East (although the Navy’s just been kicked out of the Red Sea by a bunch of goat enthusiasts), and we’re gearing up for an extension of the conflict in Ukraine (an area peripheral to our security interests), but I’ve seen no indication at all that we’re gearing up for a war with China.

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    20. "KISS"

      You're missing what KISS is in combat. A high tech, complex system may work in a non-stressed environment but that's not the question. The question is how reliable is it in combat when exposed to shock, vibration, whiplash, explosions, fire, water, smoke, etc.? Can it be quickly repaired by minimally trained techs?

      KISS bypasses those concerns by defaulting to the LOWEST and SIMPLEST technology that will do the job. Simpler is ALWAYS the preferred system in combat.

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    21. "‘transfer of control’ from the operator to a forward-deployed force that can receive control over the munition"

      Does it really strike you as realistic that we'll be able to establish and maintain that kind of communication link in the midst of an electronic warfare environment? If a ground force has that kind of communications gear, wouldn't it be easier and simpler (KISS) to just give them the physical weapon rather than start constructing handoff, remote control communication chains that are susceptible to jamming, interference, terrain effects, etc.?

      So many people blithely wave away real world combat challenges with a simple, "we'll transfer control". It's never that simple and, in combat, will likely rarely work for a host of reasons.

      "Hopefully we might also have BUDS, Seals Force Recon on the ground."

      Hopefully, those forces would be engaged in some much higher priority task than lugging around remote control comm gear in the faint hope that they can direct ten pounds of explosive.

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    22. " I’ve seen no indication at all that we’re gearing up for a war with China."

      Well, I can only conclude that you've been off-planet for several years so, welcome back!

      Here's a few reminders demonstrating the military's gearing up for war with China:

      -Pacific Pivot
      -AirSea Battle
      -the entire Marine Corps reorientation to China, the Navy declared we would be facing a Chinese war in the next few years
      -hardening of Guam
      -establishment of additional bases in the various Pacific islands

      And so on.

      Welcome back to Earth!

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    23. haha…yes, you’re correct. I should have said “gearing up to win a war with China”.

      Delete
    24. It is like during the Cold War, politicians and generals kept saying possible war with Soviet Union. Because of nuclear weapons, all out war is very unlikely for the time being. Accidental military conflicts between the two nations are possible. Giving neither can find a willing proxy, proxy war is unlikely. Japan, Vietnam, even Philippine don't want to go to war with China because they know that US won't fight to death for them but use them only.

      On the other hand, preparations are smart moves as in the Cold War. Only the other side knows that they cannot win, they will then talk to you.

      During late stage of the Cold War, national leaders actually decided to co-exist with Soviet Union then overthrow it. Unexpected, Soviet Union collapsed.

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    25. If we were seriously gearing up for a war with China, as opposed to just talking about it or vaguely/generally alluding to the possibility or likelihood of a war, we wouldn’t be stripping the Marines of their tanks and artillery before committing them to the Pacific, or allowing the Active Duty strength of the Army to fall to its lowest level since 1940. We would be building warships faster than we retire them, and not vice versa, and we’d urgently be trying to fix the problems with service availability for the F35s, and we’d be cranking up our manufacturing capabilities and inventories and building more warehouses to store war fighting materiel, and not depleting them by shipping shells and missiles off to conflict zones where our interests are peripheral at most.
      And in general we’d be recognizing that right now if war came, we’d be in a situation somewhere between an emergency, a catastrophe and an unmitigated disaster.
      As I don’t see any of the above happening, or indeed any sense of urgency at all about any of this, I conclude that when the Pentagon or other Very Serious People talk about gearing up for a war with China it’s all pretty much PR and rhetoric, and not to be taken very seriously.

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    26. If there is a war breaks out between US and China, even a limited conflict, tanks won't be useful. Just look map, if battles between US and China tend to be over sea thus mainly aircrafts, submarines, surface ships get involved. On China side, their land based weapons will be used but not tank as its firing ranges are far far too short.

      Delete
  11. A few points:
    MEUs also come with a composite Air Wing made up of F35s, AH 1 Huey’s and Cobras, MV22s and CH53s to add significant range and fire support to the M777 cannons in addition to C130 fly in element carrying HIMARS. This is significantly more firepower than you list and the deletion of tanks does not matter because they could only come ashore on LCACS which are usually broken.
    The Army’s 173 has organic M777s and M119 howitzer and M142 HIMARS which drop in with them. Their force design usually includes an armor package that can also be dropped in using LAPES for Strykers which are much more capable than LAVs and have a direct fire support variant unlike LAVs.
    The main difference is that MEUs come with composite air wings such as F35s that are not typically part of an Army unit.
    The MEU rehearses a 12 hour response time, plus time of flight or transit without forced entry capability, while the Army advertises a 72 hour response period with very limited airborne forced entry.
    The two can exist side by side because the MEU is for likely hotspots to float off shore while the 173rd is for unforeseen crises.
    The only question is why MEUs are not forward deployed in crisis regions such as the Mediterranean or Philippines where they don’t need precious amphib transit time? If MEUs were forward deployed, we could get rid of LHDs and only have a few LPDs to serve as launchers for AAVs/ACVs and lily pads to refuel helos.

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    Replies
    1. "MEUs also come with a composite Air Wing"

      The Army comes with the entire Air Force, if needed!

      "M777"

      As of 2021, the Marines had 21 M777 batteries but were planning to reduce that to 5. Do we know that MEUs still deploy with M777s? It would seem not but I'm not 100% sure.

      "C130 fly in element carrying HIMARS"

      This is only an after-the-fact capability and is not present during an opposed landing.

      "Air Wing made up of "

      The air component typically consists of 6 F-35Bs (or AV-8 Harriers) and 4 attack helos. The rest of the aircraft are transport/logistics. That's not exactly much aviation combat power.

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    2. The 2 KC-130J can be armed. APKWS is integrated on UH-1Y.

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  12. Army light infantry can drop in with 105mm howitzers and 155mm M777s and is usually augmented with either Strykers which have a direct fire support variant or tanks.
    Tanks were always effectively non-existent because they depended on always broken LCACS to get to shore and the tanks were usually broken also.
    The MEU is much more capable than Army’s paratroopers. In addition to the M777s, it has the composite wing with F35s and Cobras, and a fly in element with C130s to carry HIMARS and often has F18s as part of the fly-in element. This is a lot more fire power than the Army can provide.
    Most MEU spend about half of its 7 month deployment steaming just to get to either the Mediterranean or the Western Pacific and wearing out ships in the process. Once in the area, most MEUs disaggregate and the LHA is taken to do sea control or operate as a mini aircraft carrier separate from the LPDs. This begs the question:

    Why not make MEUs forward deployed with pre positioned equipment in the Philippines and Greece or Cyprus using only LPDs, assign the LHAs to permanent sea control missions in the Med and SCS, and base the fly in element at airfields in the same location as the LPDs so they are available for the full 7 months without having to steam to the area and wear out ships?

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    Replies
    1. "M777"

      As in previous comments, the Marines have almost completely eliminated their M777 artillery and I strongly suspect MEUs no longer deploy with them. Do you have any evidence that they still deploy with artillery?

      I also stated in previous comments that the MEU air wing consists of just 6 F-35B and 4 attack helos. An Army/AF unit would, presumably, have access to the entire AF inventory so, no comparison. In the scenario we're discussing, C-130s are not relevant as they would not be part of the initial landing.

      As you note, the ARG disaggregates and it takes days/weeks to reassemble the MEU in case of a crisis. The Army/AF can deploy in 24 hours.

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    2. The drawdown to 5 batteries of M777 had not yet happened and may never happen.
      Infantry battalions used to have habitual relationships with specific firing batteries (ie A1/11 supported 1/1) but those have gone away as batteries have switched to being missileers (A1/11 is now a missile battery).
      Instead, each coast now has cannon batteries that are tied to the MEU commands (ie: 1 battery each supports 11, 13, 15 MEU) which actually makes the battery more tied into the MEU cycle than waiting for the MEU CHOP orders.
      Don’t see this changing anytime soon.
      Since we have more HIMARS batteries, they usually fly 2 launchers ahead to where the MEU is going to be so most MEUs have HIMARS support when they need it, not after the fact.
      The Army must request AF fixed wing support through the joint process because there is no organic relationship and this normally takes 30 days. Controllers are another issue, where MEUs have organic JTACs and air planners instead of having to request them like the Army.
      6 fixed wings that you own and control are better than a whole Air Force that you have to request and wait for.

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    3. "The drawdown to 5 batteries of M777 had not yet happened and may never happen."

      It's spelled out in FD2030. As one example of how it's progressing, from a Marine Times article from May 2024,

      "The deactivation of the Camp Pendleton, California-based 5th Battalion, 11th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division ..."

      The battalion had been artillery, was converted to HIMARS, and is now disbanded.

      I don't follow land combat that closely but, at a quick glance, I can't find any evidence that the Marines have ANY active artillery, let alone embarked with MEUs. I very strongly suspect that no MEUs deploy with M777s. Do you have any evidence that they do? Do you have any actual numbers on remaining Marine artillery, if any?

      Further, the Marines appear to be retiring HIMARS, as well. From another article,

      " the Marine Corps plans to retire its HIMARS over the next several years,"

      "deactivation of 1st Battalion, 12th Marines last year, an artillery unit that tested the NMESIS system early in the Corps' adoption of it."

      "Now, the active-duty component of the Marine Corps will have two battalions with HIMARS."

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    4. There were 4 West Coast Battalions (1/11, 2/11, 3/11, 5/11) with 4 batteries each. With 5/11 gone, there are now 3 with one each of missiles, HIMARS and cannons.

      1/12 only had 1 firing battery to begin with and it was re-flagged as an MLR still with 1 battery as part of the LCT.

      The HIMARS system is supposed to get replaced with a longer ranged and more difficult to jam system, but those firing Battalions are not going away.

      The 5 cannon batteries concept was brought up in FD2030 but it is a longer term adjustment and there maybe mid course correction like we had with the Hawaii Cobra Squadron that was brought back.

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