Monday, August 4, 2025

The Thousand Ship Navy

Do you remember the Thousand Ship Navy concept?[2]  To refresh your memory,
 
In the fall of 2005, Admiral Michael G. Mullen, the U.S. Navy’s Chief of Naval Operations, challenged the world’s maritime nations to raise what he called a “thousand-ship navy” to provide for the security of the maritime domain in the twenty-first century. Speaking at the Seventeenth International Seapower Symposium at the Naval War College, in Newport, Rhode Island, Admiral Mullen candidly admitted to the assembled chiefs of navy and their representatives from seventy-five countries that “the United States Navy cannot, by itself, preserve the freedom and security of the entire maritime domain. It must count on assistance from like-minded nations interested in using the sea for lawful purposes and precluding its use for others that threaten national, regional, or global security.”  He had voiced the idea a month earlier in an address to students at the College, but he now elaborated the concept:
 
Because today’s challenges are global in nature, we must be collective in our response. We are bound together in our dependence on the seas and in our need for security of this vast commons. This is a requisite for national security, global stability, and economic prosperity. As navies, we have successfully learned how to leverage the advantages of the sea . . . advantages such as mobility, access, and sovereignty. . . . We must now leverage these same advantages of our profession to close seams, reduce vulnerabilities, and ensure the security of the domain, we collectively, are responsible for. As we combine our advantages, I envision a 1,000-ship Navy—a fleet-in-being, if you will, made up of the best capabilities of all freedom-loving navies of the world.[1]

Consider this excerpt from Mullen’s speech:
 
“…leverage the advantages of the sea . . . advantages such as mobility, access, and sovereignty. . . . We must now leverage these same advantages of our profession to close seams, reduce vulnerabilities, and ensure the security of the domain …

What a bunch of verbal garbage!  No wonder this concept didn’t go anywhere or amount to anything.  Mullen’s Thousand Ship Navy proposal was just vague fantasy for the purposes of public relations.  It was tantamount to calling for world peace – a fine sentiment that is totally divorced from reality or action.
 
Okay, so is this post just a quick shot at Mullen and we’re done?  No!  While Mullen had nothing worthwhile to offer, the idea of an international, thousand ship navy has enormous potential though not in any way that Mullen would ever have imagined.  Let’s examine a better Thousand Ship Navy.
 
Consider the following truths:
 
  • Reality is that the US Navy is the biggest and only truly significant friendly naval force in the world.
  • Reality is that the US Navy, through its own incompetence and mismanagement, has glaring gaps and weaknesses in its force structure.
 
Now, let’s lean back in our chairs, close our eyes, and think fairy dust thoughts:
 
  • Wouldn’t it be nice if we didn’t have those gaps and weaknesses? 
  • Wouldn’t it be nice if those gaps and weaknesses could be magically filled without us having to spend any money or resources?
 
Opening our eyes, we realize that those things can’t happen, right?  I mean, the only way we could fill those gaps and weaknesses without spending money or resources would be if someone else built the missing assets and gave them to us and that’s not going to happen.  It can’t happen … could it?
 
Well … what if other navies around the world focused their efforts and force structures on the assets we’re missing.  What if they built the minesweepers and SSKs, among other needs, that could fill the gaps and weaknesses in our Navy and we could call on those assets as needed?
 
Think about it.  As an example, when the global war with China comes, and it will, will the UK’s one carrier with a couple dozen short-legged F-35Bs make any difference?  Not much.  However, a couple of squadrons of highly effective mine countermeasure ships would be invaluable to the war effort.
 
Will some country’s couple of underarmed frigates make any difference?  No, but large numbers of small ASW corvettes would be a big help.
 
And so on.
 
The idea is that other countries would partner with the US to fill the gaps and weaknesses in our Navy.
 
Of course, this is easier said than done.  Consider the following challenges.
 
Command and Control – This is a challenge in peace and in war.  Who commands these fill-in assets?  No country wants to give up command and yet a single, central command, the US, is necessary.

Agendas – Every country has their own geopolitical agendas and, often, those don’t perfectly align with the US.  A fill-in force can’t be subject to the whims of each individual country.  A NATO-like imperative is needed that would compel every participating country to actively contribute their eligible assets to meeting certain defined needs such as mines in international waters, war with China (with the US required to formally declare war on China).  It is the defined nature of the compelling threats that allows countries to still pursue their own agendas outside the bounds of the defined threats and ensure that the assets are available in the face of the defined threats.  What can’t happen is, for example, a Spanish frigate pulling out of a task force because their country doesn’t perfectly agree with the task force’s mission.  If the mission is a response to a defined threat then the assets are in, pure and simple.

Force Structure – Which country would build which assets?  That can’t be left up to the individual countries.  The individual contributions must come from analysis of the US Navy’s needs and, ultimately, be subject to US dictation.  Otherwise, each country will build whatever suits them and the US gaps won’t be filled other than haphazardly, if at all.

Reciprocity – In return for, say, building mine warfare ships instead of frigates, participating countries must be supported by the US Navy for any legitimate defense needs.  In other words, the US becomes the participating country’s navy against defined threats.
 
 
Discussion
 
Ideally, this shouldn’t be necessary.  The US Navy is big enough and well funded enough that it should be able to build its own complete naval force without any gaps or weaknesses.  However, until we clean house and fire every flag officer, that won’t happen.  We’ll continue to obsolete Burkes for the next two hundred years and bigger carriers as our air wings shrink ever smaller.  This NATO-ish concept at least provides a work around to the Navy’s abject stupidity for the foreseeable future.
 
The key to making this work is a set of very specific, well defined, major international threats that would trigger the combining of assets.  This precludes, as an example, other countries being forced to go along with, say, a US strike on an aspirin factory in the middle of nowhere for political messaging purposes.
 
It should be made crystal clear that any country that opts not to participate is on their own if they find themselves threatened by an enemy.  Participate and share or stand alone.  A simple choice.
 
In order for this concept to work, it has to be divorced from any of the political maneuverings of the type that prioritized the F-35 as an international jobs program rather than a lean, focused production program.  Ship types can’t be assigned based on politics or jobs or whatever.  Of course, the individual countries can build their assigned vessels any way they like but the assignments have to be based strictly on naval combat needs.
 
Finally, note that none of the above precludes any country from still building their own ships of whatever type as long as they meet their assigned gap-filling quota.
 
 
 
___________________________
 
[1]https://digital-commons.usnwc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?httpsredir=1&article=2029&context=nwc-review
 
[2]USNI Proceedings, “The 1,000 Ship Navy: Global Maritime Network”, Vice Admiral John G. Morgan Jr., USN, and Rear Admiral Charles W. Martoglio, USN, November 2005, Proceedings Vol. 131/11/1,233
https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2005/november/1000-ship-navy-global-maritime-network

44 comments:

  1. "the Thousand Ship Navy "

    Do you mean Chinese Navy in near future?

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  2. I used to know a fellow who had commanded a Royal Navy minesweeper in the Persian Gulf during one of the Gulf Wars.

    "Why us?" I asked. "Because the USN doesn't really do mine countermeasures." "Why not?" "Er, um, dunno."

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    Replies
    1. In the USN MCM won't get you to flag rank.
      The RN has a separate career path for engineering officers.

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    2. It is very sad, for me, that the one almost unique thing we could bring to the party has been let go over the last 20 years. We are down to one vessel in the Gulf now. Let us hope Iran doesn't start planting mines any time soon. CliveF (a despondent Brit)

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  3. Thought provoking post. I saw a guy on you tube refer to the gap filling as '"complementarities" within the NATO frame work. @Comnavops, are you talking about a formal, globe spanning, naval treaty?

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    1. "are you talking about a formal, globe spanning, naval treaty?"

      Yes.

      When China goes to war, ALL shipping will suffer, meaning ALL countries will suffer. Therefore, it is in EVERY country's best interest to participate in such an arrangement.

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    2. Giving China is the largest international trader, its interest is to protect its trade routes. It is unthinkable that it orders iron ore from Australia then block this shipment through the South China Sea.

      To US, China's threat is its ability to set maritime rules and on geopolitics. For instance, settle the South China Sea dispute (China, Philippine, Vietnam, Malaysia, Brunei, Taiwan, etc.) bypass US.

      Large scale war between US and China is very unlikely - thanks to nuke! Small scale of conflicts cannot be ruled out. Even so, both sides have to maintain very strong conventional navies to prevent the other side from provoking, include proxy wars.

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  4. I wonder about this in terms of AUKUS. While I applaud AUS for having the interest in owning major weapons systems, I have doubts about their ability (and ours) to see it through, even though lots of money is already being thrown at the idea. It seems they are determined to become major regional players in the SSN game, but I'm not convinced that it'll make a huge difference. Maybe trying to get AUS to redirect funds towards somthing different, in the same vein as this post, might be a good application (??). Building a decent sized fleet of small MCM, or ASW ships... Even building a sizeable maritime UAV fleet to assist the US in obtaining targeting intel would be useful. And perhaps, considering their proximity to a potential conflict theatre... maybe they could take over some of our unmanned programs since we seem so determined to keep pursuing them...

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    1. AUKUS will end badly. Australia will not get a useable nuclear sub. Giving the nation's difficulties to supply its own, giving UK's outdated design, what do you then expect?

      AUKUS itself is questionable. Just look map of Indonesia's territorial sea, you would know the problem. What Americans' expectation - Australia sends nuke sub to anoint China won't work. Australia and Indonesia has poor relations since long ago. Indonesia is a non-alliance nation. It purchases weapons from all over the world, include China. Since it has Chinese weapons (missiles, drones, etc.), it is very unlikely that it will turn hostile against China especially it has no territorial dispute with China in the South China Sea (some minor EEZ issues only).

      Indonesia is very reluctant to get involved in US - China power struggle. Its territorial sea is most shallow waters. What China needs to do is to sell Indonesia anti submarines tools at deep discount prices. Yes, Indonesia doesn't want to get into US-China but make Australia sub unable to sail through without formal permissions from Indonesia is still its national security. This permission is likely denied once US - China tensions heat up.

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    2. "giving UK's outdated design,"

      I've seen no significant details of the new SSN-AUKUS submarine. You apparently have access to details that I have not seen publicly so please share them. I'd like to know what makes the yet to be released design outdated.

      "AUKUS itself is questionable. ... Indonesia"

      Again, you seem to have knowledge of how an SSN-AUKUS would be used so please share. I've seen nothing about actual uses but I could imagine that the might be used in and around the Philippines, in the S/E China Seas, around Taiwan, trailing Chinese subs and gathering acoustic signatures, mapping the seabeds and undersea conditions, etc. Hardly questionable uses.

      What is highly questionable is Australia's ability to support nuclear submarine crewing requirements and nuclear submarine maintenance and logistics.

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    3. Interesting to see that the Aussies are buying 11 upgraded Japanese Mogami class frigates to supplement their 4 British designed Hunter class ASW ships.
      The Mogamis seem be more capable than the Connies with only 60% of the displacement.
      Very sensible decision to have the first ships constructed in Japan, and to be 90% ‘off the shelf’ ie no changes to the existing Japanese design except an increase from 16 VLS tubes to 32.

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    4. CNO would be more impressed if the Mogami's
      were the 6" Cruiser versions.

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    5. 8" !!! 20.3 cm/50 3rd Year Type 2 guns

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    6. Originally, Australia's target was UK's type 26 but as usual, delays after delays and technical incompetencies, Australia opened new bid. One key requirement is fast delivery where Japan has no problem. Even so, final purchase agreement has not yet signed.

      However, Australia asks Mitsubishi to upgrade them from their original design. This requires further R&D but certainly Aussies have lost confidence on their cousins' technical capabilities.

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  5. The problem with democracies is that we change our minds. If well meaning leaders created this system, which sounds like a bigger, better NATO to me, sooner or later, we would elect leaders who found reasons for tearing it apart. I hope this comment is seen as practical rather than political.

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    1. "sooner or later, we would elect leaders who found reasons for tearing it apart"

      Perhaps but that's hardly a reason not to do something. The Founding Fathers could have used that pessimistic reasoning to not even make a Constitution but they opted for optimism, instead. Similarly, NATO has stood for many decades despite some people, and some elected leaders, being against it. I see no reason why a well crafted, international, naval defense organization that benefits everyone can't survive. Of course, if it's poorly crafted and filled with political and social engineering objectives then it should die.

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    2. My concern was that setting up the organisation might have a trust hurdle to get over. If, however, things worked well, might that lead to British anti mine vessels protecting the ports on America’s Atlantic coast and German SSKs a little further out, keeping hostile submarines at long range? How comfortable would Americans be with British warships in view from the coast?

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    3. At the moment our major European allies - UK, France, Germany, Italy and Spain plus Japan and South Korea - each have national shipbuilding industries capable of constructing a full range of naval warships from submarines through OPVs to aircraft carriers.
      It’s very unlikely that they would be willing to allow this capability to be lost and for each to focus instead on ‘niche’ shipbuilding of eg ASW frigates or MCM corvettes, and then to trust the USN to come to their rescue if a localized naval conflict were to arise where American interests were not directly threatened.
      More useful and practicable would be a change in the law to allow us to purchase foreign built warships, and have repairs and maintenance carried out in overseas shipyards.

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    4. "a trust hurdle to get over"

      ??? There's no trust involved. A treaty organization is a contract. The parties are OBLIGATED to take the specified action. Trust doesn't enter into the picture.

      "How comfortable would Americans be with British warships in view from the coast?"

      Our staunchest ally helping to defend us? All for it. They can dock in my backyard. No one is going to be upset about a British ship. Where are you from, anyway?

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    5. "unlikely that they would be willing to allow this capability to be lost"

      ?? Where did you see the slightest suggestion that foreign countries would lose their shipbuilding capability or force structure rights?

      Since you clearly missed it, here's the relevant passage from the post:

      "Finally, note that none of the above precludes any country from still building their own ships of whatever type ..."

      Do your homework, read the posts carefully, and give me better comments.

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    6. Specializing in building one type of warship might not theoretically ‘preclude’ a country building any kind of ship it decides on, but it practical terms it would.

      Specializing in eg ASW as the British navy did in the Cold War - when they provided the screen around ships bringing men and material across the Atlantic - would utilize all their available shipbuilding capacity, and they would lose the ability to design, build and maintain larger warships.

      This is exactly what happened when the Brits stopped building aircraft carriers in the decades after WW2 and tried to restart in 2010, and with their submarines where the 20 year delay between designing the last of the British SSBNs in 1991 and the first Astute class SSNs has led to major design problems, cost blowouts and very long delays in construction and maintenance.

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    7. ??? There's no trust involved. A treaty organization is a contract. The parties are OBLIGATED to take the specified action. Trust doesn't enter into the picture."
      To operate as you suggest your ‘contract’ would need to be drafted as a self-executing defense treaty including a specific textual commitment to the use by the United States of armed force, which would be unconstitutional as it would require the Executive to exercise authority that the Constitution assigns to Congress exclusively.
      If instead the treaty were to be drafted as non self-executing - ie if the text required Congressional approval or some legislative action in order for it to be enforceable - it would be necessary for the other parties to the treaty to trust that subsequent administrations would comply with its terms, and that a future Congress would take the necessary actions to allow it to come into effect.
      So it would indeed all come down to ‘trust’.

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    8. UK's naval ship building is even worse than US

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    9. The British navy has 112 admirals (NATO flag rank equivalent), one operational submarine, and eight surface warships.

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    10. "Specializing in eg ASW as the British navy did in the Cold War ... would utilize all their available shipbuilding capacity,"

      As you noted, the British supplied a great deal of ASW capability in the Cold War so it's historically proven that they CAN do it. Perhaps what's needed is not for the US to baby the UK and provide protection but for the UK to reevaluate their spending priorities and defense needs?

      Beyond that, no one suggested that the UK suddenly devote their entire shipbuilding industry to making ASW or MCM or whatever a naval-NATO might need. There would be plenty of countries and UK would only be asked to supply what they reasonably could. You appear to be trying to find reasons why this can't work instead of seeing the potential benefits and finding reasons why it can work.

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    11. " your ‘contract’ would need to be drafted as a self-executing defense treaty including a specific textual commitment to the use by the United States of armed force, which would be unconstitutional as it would require the Executive to exercise authority that the Constitution assigns to Congress exclusively."

      You desperately need a basic lesson in civics. A treaty, any treaty, must be approved by Congress before it can take effect and be legally binding on the US. If Congress ratifies the treaty then it is legal for the President to exercise any powers defined in the treaty. Learn your government!

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    12. You are completely incorrect.
      Congress cannot delegate to the President its exclusive authority under the Constitution to declare war.
      The Supreme Court has ruled on the matter and it is settled law but by all means DYOR on this.
      Thanks for your interesting blog.

      Delete
    13. Where have you found any mention, whatsoever, of my suggesting that the President would somehow take the Constitutional right to declare war away from Congress? That's right, you haven't. You're concocting an argument from something that was never stated.

      What was stated was a proposal for a naval-NATO-ish arrangement whereby participating countries would supply the US Navy with various assets in the event of certain, carefully and well defined threats.

      Now, to further demonstrate how wrong you are, note the historical precedents for non-declared war: Korea, Vietnam, various Iraq wars, Afghanistan, etc. Clearly, despite the reservation to Congress of the power to formally declare war, the precedent has been set that the President has great latitude to commit the US military to combat. The Supreme Court has not stepped in to stop any of those.

      You might further want to review the War Powers Act which formally defines certain scenarios and conditions in which the President DOES have authority to commit US military forces to combat.

      The next time you want to try to "win" some kind of contest with me, start by being certain that it's about something I've actually written, not something you only think I've written. After that, be sure to study the historical precedents. Finally, be sure you actually know the existing law.

      Last of all, don't bother commenting again until you can do so respectfully and with a goal of learning rather than "winning". There is no prize for winning on this blog other than the prize of knowledge. Better yet, don't bother commenting again, period.

      Delete
  6. CNO... By chance did I go to spam yesterday? I had what I thought was a reasonable comment yesterday afternoon. ;)

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  7. "In the end ..."

    Comment deleted. Give us something useful or refrain from vague, pointless comments.

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  8. I think your key line is that this "shouldn't be necessary". It isn't. The cost to have robust mine sweeping capabilities, and robust anti-submarine ships for example, is a rounding error in the defense budget. If we can't see the need for these resources ourselves, how would we ever make the effort to organize around others providing them and having a robust treaty in place so that they're guaranteed to truly be available and functional?

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    1. At some point, you have to think beyond the current, badly broken system and start imagining better things. If not, if all we'll allow ourselves to accept is the current, broken state of affairs then we'll never improve.

      Many active duty Navy personnel read this blog (I know from the emails I get). I throw out better ideas in the hope that one will take seed and grow. I'm trying to do what I can to influence the Navy for the better. I won't give into pessimism and quit trying!

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    2. Then maybe its more individualized relationships - a treaty with Japan to provide Anti-Submarine forces, one with South Korea to provide Anti-Mine forces, etc. Something less that global and perhaps is tailored to the skills that other countries have already demonstrated. (My examples are not taking that into account.)

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    3. "individualized relationships - a treaty with"

      What's the difference between a group treaty or a bunch of individual treaties that accomplish the same thing? None! And, a bunch of individual treaties is harder to negotiate, execute, and maintain. A single NATO-ish treaty is far more efficient.

      "tailored to the skills that other countries have already demonstrated."

      Of course! You couldn't possibly think I'd be recommending making blind, random assignments of ship contributions, could you? Naturally any assignments would take into account existing ships, capabilities, and capacities. Thought that went without saying.

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  9. If the balloon goes the UK carrier(s) will be full of USMC F-35b. The US will need the stealth platforms.

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    1. A UK carrier with a small air wing that lacks AEW, EW, and tanking and has short legged, lightly armed F-35Bs would be of marginal use, at best.

      Perhaps you should review the archives and read about the Ford's program manager who described how they looked at F-35Bs as an early option and ruled them out as having half the range and half the weapons capacity. Remember, what you read in spec sheets or Wiki is the best case under perfect conditions, using land take off and landing. A ski ramp severely limits take off weights which means less fuel and less weapons. There's a reason why the US Navy doesn't have B models on its carriers.

      Anyone who envisions the UK carrier joining in with US carriers simply doesn't understand the operations and limitations of ski ramp carriers or their aircraft.

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  10. I think that the idea of a "naval NATO" with different smaller navies contributing in specialized areas would have been a great idea in the not too distant past.
    You have to look at this from the point of view of other, non U.S., countries. In my own country, Canada, the strategy-to the extent we ever do strategy-has often been "what's the least we can spend and still get a seat at the table where decisions effecting us are being made". (not I grant you a particularly heroic slogan, but also not a completely unreasonable attitude for smaller countries) In the past, for the RCN, this became the rational for specializing in Anti-Submarine Warfare. It was something of value that we could contribute to an alliance and something that we did well. As time passed smaller budgets and a resulting loss of focus meant that some of these capabilities were lost but even in the more recent passed it could be argued that the RCN had an Atlantic-centric ASW bias.
    In that environment I believe that the "naval NATO" idea would have been welcomed. I am afraid that time has passed however.
    I know that politics is discouraged in this space but sometimes, to completely misquote, 'politics is the continuation of war by other means' so it's hard to avoid when we are talking about navies.
    In the past there was a general understanding that, in return for a security guarantee from the United States-and access to U.S. markets, other countries agreed to contribute to the common defence and generally follow the U.S. lead in determining how the international order, in terms of business and diplomacy, should work. It was a system that, with some noticeable caveats, worked reasonably well.
    That system is no longer in place. The United States has decided to monetize access to American security and markets. Moreover they have signaled a willingness to forgo traditional international alliances in pursuit of domestic policy goals. This is not to say, at least from the U.S. point of view, that this is a bad thing-but it is, from the view of other nations it is a new thing.
    In this new world order other countries, like Canada, will spend more on defence (about time!) but they will no longer automatically spend it on items related to the general defence as defined by the United States but are more likely to spend it on capabilities more closely defined by more narrow national interests. To the extent these capabilities mesh with U.S. needs is no longer as important as the concept of defending ourselves in the absence of American security guarantees.
    I am sorry that the idea of a ‘Naval NATO’ is a non-starter now, I believe that the old security order was better for everyone, including the United States. But as it stand now the degree of confidence in the United States is not great enough to allow it. To put it bluntly, we don’t trust you any more.

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    1. Yes, I agree that the idea of some kind of new Naval NATO is a total non-starter.
      There are two issues; first the willingness of the United States to honor its commitments past or future to its allies. The current administration has repeatedly expressed its unwillingness to come to the aid of NATO states that haven’t met their obligations to spend xx% of their GDP on defense. Second; America’s commitments to defend its allies have long outstripped its abilities to do so, and
      Roosevelt’s ‘Arsenal of Democracy’ is looking increasingly like Old Mother Hubbard’s cupboard.
      The world looks at an America that is becoming weaker in every sense, and at America’s adversaries that are becoming stronger both absolutely and relatively.
      Who would trust us and why should they do so?

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    2. "The United States has decided to monetize access to American security and markets."

      No, the US has decided to stop being on the bad end of trade arrangements and tariffs and start demanding equality. You might want to research historical trade deficits and tariffs for the US/Canada and US /world before you comment on this again.

      "signaled a willingness to forgo traditional international alliances in pursuit of domestic policy goals"

      No, the US has decided to legally opt out of a few treaties that were not in our best interests - as any country would do if a treaty no longer served their interests.

      That's the extent of the political discussion for this topic.

      "more likely to spend it on capabilities more closely defined by more narrow national interests."

      As they should do! And, as the US should do! You seem perfectly fine with Canada pursuing actions that benefit it but you seem reluctant to cede the US' right to do the same. Illogical.

      The goal of a naval-NATO is to structure it so that EVERYONE who participates finds it in their best interests to do so which is EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE CALLING FOR.

      "To put it bluntly, we don’t trust you any more."

      Trust has nothing to do with it. You enter a treaty because you see the benefits. Once in, you carry out your legally binding obligations. Trust is not a factor.

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    3. "repeatedly expressed its unwillingness to come to the aid of NATO states that haven’t met their obligations to spend xx% of their GDP on defense."

      What a hypocritical load of garbage you just spouted. First, the US has never failed to come to the aid of a country as part of a treaty obligation. Second, the US has NOT stated that it would not come to the aid of a treaty partner. Third, if, as you point out, one of the treaty partners has FAILED to meet its defense spending REQUIREMENTS then that party has forfeited its standing in and participation in the treaty. In contrast to your statement, the US has been supporting the bulk of NATO despite the NATO members not living up to their obligations. That suggests that not only is the US trustworthy - far more so than the NATO members who have knowingly failed to meet their treaty obligations - , it is the other countries that are not trustworthy as evidenced by their failure to meet their defense spending obligations.

      If you wish to comment, do so factually and logically.

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    4. As I pointed out, it’s hard not to get into politics in these discussions.
      On my comment:
      "more likely to spend it on capabilities more closely defined by more narrow national interests."
      You made the point that:
      "As they should do! And, as the US should do! You seem perfectly fine with Canada pursuing actions that benefit it but you seem reluctant to cede the US' right to do the same. Illogical.”

      In fact I am not happy with a “go it alone” defence policy. Smaller countries like Canada are better off with allies in strong co-coalitions for their security needs. That means coordinating defence planning and procurement beyond immediate just national interests.

      I am not “reluctant to cede the US’ right to do the same”, in fact I made the wrote that:
      “This is not to say, at least from the U.S. point of view, that this is a bad thing-but it is, from the view of other nations it is a new thing.”

      The United States has every right to follow what ever policies it deems best for its own self interest. It would completely wrong for outsiders to try to suggest other wise. What I am saying is that nobody can deny that the current administration has changed many of the old rules and that it is important that ever one understand that this has consequences, sometimes unintended ones.

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    5. "current administration"

      First, we are talking about a strictly hypothetical scenario not an actual proposed treaty crafted by the current administration so any talk of Trump or the current admin is pointless and inappropriate.

      Second, it is irrelevant who the current President is. A treaty is either beneficial for the participants or it is not. If it is beneficial - and a global naval-NATO certainly would be! - then the name of the US President is irrelevant.

      You have wound up pretty much agreeing with everything I've said. Therefore, I can only conclude that you appear to have begun this thread strictly because you don't like Trump and wanted to take a shot at him in an offhand manner.

      So, having dispensed with your personal bias, we are left simply with the question of whether a naval-NATO would be beneficial for Canada. If you'd care to address that - and you kind of did with your statement, "Smaller countries like Canada are better off with allies in strong co-coalitions" - then feel free to comment further while leaving the biases and politics out of it. Thank you.

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