Friday, January 5, 2024

Free Up Ships for More Important Duties

We constantly hear the justification, [it (whatever it is)] will free up [something else] for other, more important duties.    For example, the LCS will free up Burkes for more important duties.  Or, the Constellation will free up Burkes for more important duties.  That sounds fine on paper but, in reality, it’s just buzzword garbage.  What are these other ‘more important duties’?  I’m looking around and I don’t see Burkes conducting other ‘more important duties’, do you?
 
We have 86 Burkes/Ticos.  Are they really all tied up on unimportant duties and need freeing up?  Are there really ‘more important duties’ that are going unattended because Burkes are being wasted on less important duties?  Most of our Burkes sit pier side most of the year.  Are we really short of Burkes for ‘more important duties’?
 
Many use this justification to promote smaller carriers;  if we had smaller carriers we could free up the supercarriers for ‘more important duties’.  Again, what are these ‘more important duties’ that our carriers are currently foregoing in favor of less important duties?  Remember, we have 11 carriers and most of the time only one or two are deployed.  Do we really lack sufficient carriers for ‘more important duties’?
 
Now some – myself foremost among them - might suggest that all of our Burkes and carriers are, actually, engaged in less important duties but that’s because there are no important duties that we’re willing to take on. 
 
What might be examples of these ‘more important duties’?
 
We don’t forcefully confront China, Iran, Russia, or NKorea, which would be more important duties, so that’s not it.
 
We don’t use our high tech, high firepower Burkes to rein in Iran’s antics in the Middle East or prevent them from attacking and seizing merchant ships.  In fact, our policy is to stand by and watch.  So, that’s not the ‘more important duty’.
 
We don’t shoot down NKorea’s rogue, out of control ballistic missiles during their tests so that’s not the ‘more important duty’.
 
We’re not aggressively trailing and harassing Chinese subs so that’s not the ‘more important duty’.
 
We’re not conducting Innocent Passage exercises through China’s territorial waters as they’ve done to us so that’s not the ‘more important duty’.
 
We’re not conducting regular and frequent live fire training exercises so that’s not the ‘more important duty’.
 
We’re not providing large escorts for our carriers (typically around three Burkes per carrier) so that’s not the ‘more important duty’.
 
We’re not developing and exercising combat tactics such as squadron destroyer operations so that’s not the ‘more important duty’.
 
We’re not cruising just off African nations and conducting surveillance and attacks on terrorist grounds so that’s not the ‘more important duty’.
 
We’re not conducting relentless training exercises against diesel subs, the most common type of enemy sub, so that’s not the ‘more important duty’.
 
 
Now, let’s talk about priorities.  Are we really choosing to assign Burkes and carriers to less important, lower priority duties instead of ‘more important duties’ that, presumably, have higher priority?  If so, that’s incompetence on a treasonous level.  I’ll give the Navy the benefit of the doubt on this one and assume that they’re assigning ships to tasks in order of importance and priority.  That being the case, by definition, there can’t be any ‘more important duties’ because we’ve already assigned ships to them.
 
To be fair, people attempt to use this justification for other platforms, too.  For example, I’ve heard people call for a new F-16-ish fighter in order to free up F-22s for ‘more important duty’.  What ‘more important duty’ are F-22s ignoring in favor of less important ones?
 
 
In short, ‘more important duties’ is a specious justification wholly unsupported by facts, logic, or reality.  It is a fraudulent attempt to justify something that cannot be justified on its own merits.

34 comments:

  1. Feels like it's overkill having Burkes doing counterpiracy work tho. That would be what the Perrys would be good for, if we still had them.

    There's an argument that the more sophisticated missile threat the Chinese bring to the table means that every escort, even the frigates, now needs a serious AAW-grade radar because conventional spin radars don't have the field of view to look up to see an incoming ASBM, but I don't really buy that.

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    1. "conventional spin radars don't have the field of view"

      That's nonsense and factually false. Rotating radars (TRS-3D/4D and others) have fast rotation rates and provide effective 360 degree coverage. The manufacturers claim they're superior to Aegis. Of course, manufacturers claim all kinds of things ... Still, it illustrates that rotating radars are quite effective.

      "Burkes doing counterpiracy work"

      The real problem is not that we're using Burkes for anti-piracy work but that we're using the wrong rules of engagement. They're pirates, for crying out loud! You destroy them on sight. If you're willing to do that, you don't need Burkes or Perrys or Constellations or carrier battle groups; a simple Coast Guard cutter or corvette has more than enough firepower.

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    2. I feel it's worth pointing out that the TRS-4D is a single panel AESA radar, placed in a rotating mount, as opposed to a conventional mechanically scanned radar. I see it as a compromise solution, a way of getting an AAW grade radar into a smaller footprint than what we see with fixed face radars. There's no way you can fit the full 4 faces for EASR, let alone SPY-1 or SPY-6 onto an LCS, but you can put a TRS-4D up top.

      ...which does beg the question of why the Navy is buying TRS-4D for LCS. One would have thought that buying TRS-4D would have made more sense for the constellations and saved a fair bit on superstructure and radar costs, instead of going for EASR and becoming an American FREMM-Akizuki.

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    3. You really need two rotating AESA radars simply for redundancy, just like the main gun fire control directors on older warhsips. I would have a third under armor as a popup backup, though that might be smaller and less capable, but at least capable of engaging incoming threats s the ship limps away from battle (or is struggling to get underway again). I realize that's pointless on today's glass-chinned "warships".

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    4. "two rotating AESA radars simply for redundancy, just like the main gun fire control directors on older warhsips. I would have a third under armor as a popup backup"

      I like the way you're thinking about WARship designs!

      Delete
  2. There is only one justification and that is financial. In other words getting more numbers from the money you have in hand.

    But alas, USN cannot admit it since their smaller ships too go for a billion.

    -BM

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  3. The 1960s...now... Theres no difference. There are folks with bad intentions, and diplomacy isnt going to alter their course. That means a military solution. The thing is, since WWII, we've gotten caught up in the politics and "how we look" while conducting a war. Good grief- if we send troops or ships and shots are being traded, its WAR!! At that point, you pull out the stops and you destroy and kill until the enemy is gone. We havent done that in 70 years. Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq... They could've all been campaigns that lasted less than a year, and we would certainly have "won"... if only the military had been allowed to. China at this point wont be easy, but Iran and the middle east problems could be solved in a weekend- if only we had the will to do so. Thinking that military interventions arent a necessasary and feasible/winnable option is naive. Thinking that theyll behave and shape up through talking and diplomacy, thats a fantasyland pipe dream. History says so. Ignoring bad behavior and allowing bad actors to continue on course without repercussions until the point they CANT be ignored any longer:
    THOSE are the dumbass mistakes that keep being made...!!!

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    1. How - in your view - could we use our military to solve the problems in the Middle East and/or Iran ‘in a weekend’?
      Launching air strikes with our FA18s? F35s? Tomahawks?
      If the Iranians or the Yemenis were in the least bit concerned or intimidated by this threat they are showing no signs of it at all.
      I would say that never in the long history of the USN, has so much military and naval hardware been deployed to so little effect.
      These guys are laughing at us, and with good reason.

      Delete
    2. "dumbass"

      There's no need to respond to vulgarities in kind. Everyone's points, pro or con, agree or disagree, can be made without resorting to vulgarities. Rest assured I'll take care of the problems. You'll note that the initial offending comment has been removed - not for the opinion but for the vulgarity and impoliteness. You can return to your usual excellent commenting and rest easy that I'll police the site!

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    3. "How - in your view - could we use our military to solve the problems in the Middle East and/or Iran ‘in a weekend’?"

      While the use of 'a weekend' is largely hyperbole (you know what hyperbole is and can readily recognize it, right?), the underlying concept is valid. Iran is the locus of terrorism and unrest in the middle east and, as such, provides a convenient military focus for action. Further, as a highly centralized dictatorship, it provides and even narrower focus for military action. A handful of strikes would decapitate the leadership leaving a further handful of inept, isolated, leaderless military units to mop up. There is no general, fervent, anti-West sentiment among the populace to contend with.

      Decapitate, mop up, and leave without attempting to impose any sort of government. Let the people form a government or descend into civil war or do whatever they want ... not our problem. A handful of strikes will have solved our problem in a weekend.

      I trust that answers your ill-informed question?

      "If the Iranians or the Yemenis were in the least bit concerned or intimidated by this threat they are showing no signs of it at all."

      Quite right. They understand that our policy is, currently, one of limitless appeasement. You can't deter anyone if you never take action. That, however, is a government policy issue not a military one.

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    4. "There's no need to..."

      Apologies CNO! Your ideas and opinions here are some of the most well-considered and accurate on the net. It seemed like a harsh, personal, attempted indictment of those ideas, and the common sense stance that force is a valid and necessasary tool. Youre quite capable of defending yourself, I just couldnt not reply! Again, apologies for overdoing it.
      I do truly believe that all our past failures and "losses", are not due to a lack of capability, but a lack of will to use it properly. I waxed hyperbolic, but not by that much. The past issues (and future ones) are absolutely a policy issue and not one of ability. Many of the problematic actors we have today wouldnt be problematic, or even exist today, if our leadership had learned from history... And the blame can be placed on not just current ones, but can be applied back for decades.

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    5. "I just couldnt not reply!"

      I understand!

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    6. The problem with Iran is that while they're not much militarily (would probably lose control of the skies to the Air and Space Museum), once you defeat the conventional military there's the way too familiar quagmire of "nation building", "insurgents" and generally having to deal with a sizable nation of almost ninety million people who mostly doesn't like you.
      Would anyone send more Americans to die for that?

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    7. " there's the way too familiar quagmire of "nation building"

      You're not recalling my plan for dealing with Iran or any middle east country: you eliminate the military/terrorist capability AND THEN LEAVE. Let the citizens decide what to do. They can form a government, fragment into tribal wars, call the US for help, or whatever else they wish. IT'S NOT OUR PROBLEM AT THAT POINT. Once we eliminate the threat ... we leave. No nation building. No long term quagmire, as you put it. Execute the military mission and then RTB.

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    8. To paraphrase CMDR Eddington (Kirk Douglas) from "In Harms Way"..... a gut busting mother loving Punitive Expedition!

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    9. "You're not recalling my plan for dealing with Iran or any middle east country"
      That's a pretty solid idea, I suppose the US should be competent enough to destroy all their serious missiles and nuclear tech before leaving.
      You might need to go back a second time if they decide to start messing with Persian Gulf shipping again, but that'd basically be a live fire exercise.

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    10. "You might need to go back a second time if they decide to start messing with Persian Gulf shipping again,"

      You're still not grasping the concept. If you eliminate the leadership and the military, there won't be anyone left with either the desire or the capability to interfere with anything outside their own hundred yard radius surroundings.

      The second part of my approach is that we continually lob cruise missiles at any emerging leader who gives the slightest indication of desire to cause problems outside their country. Eventually, subsequent emerging leaders will recognize/realize that causing problems is the path to a short lifespan and they'll refrain from doing so out of simple self-preservation.

      We keep trying to make things more complicated for ourselves than it needs to be. Iran is a problem only because we stupidly allow it.

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    11. My Polish-born friend (born 1956, was involved with Solidarity and escaped to Sweden the day before martial law was declared) thought a few dozen Arc Light strikes would solve Israel's problems with Gaza if Israel only had our B-52 fleet, and our problems with the Houthis. The Navy could use cluster bombs and FAEs and take out all the vessels in pirate strongholds. Of course, he also thought e should've nuked Mecca and Riyadh after 9/11. He's rather bloody-minded, and hates Russia and Russians in general with a passion (though individual Russians are fine). He's got a long memory and a cultural grudge going on. "There's no point in not hitting as hard as possible. Make the first punch a clean knockout, or at least as close as you can get. And don't stop hitting until they know they're beaten and can't fight no more. Eastern Europeans are far mor sensible about that than peacenik Germans and other EU members.

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  4. Agree with #1 Anon, if we still had Perrys or today equivalent, this mission in Red Sea really would be better served than using Burkes. Although I'm already seeing people comment on other defense post that Constellation doesn't have enough AAW capabilities for the job?!?APPARENTLY, even USN MIGHT AGREE!!! It has baseline AEGIS 10 so how much more AAW capabilities does it need??!?

    If Constellation can't operate against some pirates and some ASMs in the Red Sea, where is it supposed to operate?!? Is this a LCS repeat OR more ominous really, USN is so afraid of a hit or loss that it only feels something like a BURKE can operate anywhere or sailors can hide behind?!? Why are we buying Constellations then? This isn't a ship problem anymore then: its USN leadership that's so scared it can't send sailors in harm's way!!!

    It would be like if during Cold War, the mindset would be to have the entire navy deploying in Ticonderogas only because Perrys and Spruces weren't considered survivable!

    Repeating myself but at this point, this isn't a ship problem anymore, its USN mindset that's fundamentally WRONG!!!!

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    1. "already seeing people comment on other defense post that Constellation doesn't have enough AAW capabilities for the job"

      Since there have been almost no details released about what the 'job' is, I can't say whether a Constellation or Burke or whatever is suitable for the 'job'.

      However, the larger issue is why we need a DEFENSIVE asset to begin with? You don't deal with attacks by defending; you deal with attacks by striking at the source of the attack (easier to kill archers than arrows). We should be seeking out and destroying the source.

      We have no details so I can't offer specifics but we have 70,000 special forces, Ranger units, an entire Marine Corps, undisputed control of the skies, massive cruise missile support, and so on. Can we really not seek and destroy the source of these attacks? If we can't, then we've really wasted unimaginable trillions of dollars of military budget. If can, what are we waiting for?

      We either need to clear out of the area or eliminate the threat. Hanging around in the field of fire is a 100% guarantee that eventually we'll lose a ship.

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    2. While I obviously dont know for sure, Id imagine that we have the assets in place to identify exactly where the missiles and drones are coming from. And while I understand that attacks into a nation (even one as fractured and unstable as Yemen) need approval from civilian leadership, its frustrating that someone at Fleet leadership level cant give the ok for ships in theatre to go from a passive defense to an offensive one. Id think that the DDGs that have been shooting the missiles and drones down even have enough of a track on them to engage in counterbattery fire. Certainly with the addition of a little theatre intel they could, and itd fall under the ship acting in self defense. Im not suggesting that the CO, or even Fleet command goes rogue, but the ROEs are definitely too restrictive, and Id be fine with a DDG sending Tomahawks back up the track of the next drones or missiles that fly, regardless of political fallout. Thats how bad actors learn, and ships not mired in the politics of the situation would quickly give lessons.

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  5. OT and perhaps humerus take on freeing up ships - looks like the UK recruiting wows are such they going to have to retire two type 23 frigates. Looks like an opportunity as far as I can say even used they are a better deal then two LCS ships (of either type).

    https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/britain-to-scrap-two-royal-navy-frigates-say-reports/

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  6. https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/royal-navy-forced-to-retire-frigates-due-to-personnel-shortages-report

    "....Critics have decried the possibility of the decommissioning in light of the Royal Navy's shrinking fleet size and broader readiness concerns. The former chairman of the U.K. Parliamentary Defense Select Committee, Tobias Ellwood, described the decision as "baffling" given the U.K.’s surface fleet already remains "massively overstretched."
    "During the Gulf War the Royal Navy boasted 51 frigates and destroyers," he said. "That number will soon fall to just 16. Yet our world is more dangerous than [at] any time since 1945. The strength of today’s Royal Navy is simply inadequate to handle the ever-complex threat picture that is harming our economy."

    I think this confirms what I said, EU overall navies just don't have the numbers of ships, readiness, crews, spare parts, etc....51 ships during Cold War to 16 today for RN!

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    1. Gets worse shelving 2 is the story but there is rumor that Turkey is looking buy 3.

      When the UK did the deal with Chileans to sell the that was ~135 Million and it cost them another 600 million to have Lockheed to the equivalent of a the mid life up grade on them.

      Three looks like a really beating 3 freedom class ships and the type 23s are dedicated ASW by design.

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  7. " What are these other ‘more important duties’? I’m looking around and I don’t see Burkes conducting other ‘more important duties’, do you?"

    If you can't think of anything better to do training and maintaining is always a good start. We spend so much time looking for things to use our forces for that we forget that being ready to be used is really the most important use be wars that determine if you live or die.

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  8. "We’re not aggressively trailing and harassing Chinese subs so that’s not the ‘more important duty’."

    If Chinese aren't being provacative, what is the purpose of harassing their subs? They are free to operate in international waters. If they're not making an innocent passage through territorial waters or get too close to a carrier group, then harass them.

    I would like to think the Navy is tracking their subs and ships and doing so without being detected. Hopefully, our ships, subs, and aircraft are building a signature database of their ships and subs. They are doing the same as a PLAN frigate was just seen observing the Carl Vinson Carrier Group in the South China Sea.

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    1. "If Chinese aren't being provacative, what is the purpose of harassing their subs?"

      AREN'T BEING PROVACATIVE????? Do you really need me to list the endless examples of Chinese provocations?

      I assume that interest of balance, you're also asking the same question of the Chinese on their websites?

      "They are free to operate in international waters."

      And yet if we operate in international waters within a thousand miles of China, they harass and threaten us. Are we not free to operate in international waters? Again, are you pointing this out on Chinese websites?

      You seem to have a decidedly one-sided view of how this works.

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    2. Hmm, let's see:

      1. Forcefully confront China, Iran, Russia, or NKorea.
      2. Use our high tech, high firepower Burkes to rein in Iran’s antics in the Middle East or prevent them from attacking and seizing merchant ships.
      3. Shoot down NKorea’s rogue, out of control ballistic missiles during their tests.
      4. Aggressively trail and harass Chinese (and Russian) subs.
      5. Conduct Innocent Passage exercises through China’s territorial waters with a task force capable of severe destruction instead of an occasional isolated ship.
      6. Conduct regular and frequent live fire training exercises.
      7. Providing large escort forces for our carriers (say 1 cruiser, 2 AAW destroyers, 3 GP escorts, and 4 ASW frigates, at minimum).
      8. Develop and exercise combat tactics such as squadron destroyer operations.
      9. Cruise just off African nations and conduct surveillance and attacks on terrorist grounds.
      10. Conduct relentless training exercises against diesel subs, the most common type of enemy sub.

      Souds like pretty good laundery list of things that the US Navy should be doing. Add conduct an annual realistic training exercise for the fleet as a whole, something like the interbellum Fleet Problems or the Royal Navy's Springtrain, to test and prove up systems and practices and rehearse for the next peer war.

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    3. 1. Forcefully confront ...or NKorea
      3. Shoot down NKorea’s rogue, out of control ballistic missiles during their tests.

      Too what end and why what is the policy goal?

      Delete
  9. “Remember, we have 11 carriers and most of the time only one or two are deployed.”

    Source? Back when I followed this more closely there was virtually never a time only a single carrier was deployed. I can’t imagine it’s anywhere close to true that “most” the time only 1 or 2 is deployed. Maybe “some” of the time there are only 2, but hardly most and probably almost never a single carrier

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    1. You might try following the ship tracker on the USNI website. Once upon a time we used to keep three or more carriers deployed but those times are long gone. Two is generally the max now. For example, we currently have Vinson and Eisenhower deployed.

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    2. Well this is odd. I just looked on the exact website you suggested. I see the Eisenhower, the Vinson, the ford, and the Reagan CSG as being deployed. So four. I don’t want to argue whether the Reagan is “deployed” since they are constantly in and out of port.

      But 3 or 4 is a far cry from 1 or 2

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    3. Reagan is based in Japan and is always shown there. It isn't out on deployment. Ford's deployment is over and is headed home. That leaves 2 carriers, Vinson and Eisenhower, deployed, as I stated.

      You know what's really odd? It's that with the immense amount of discussion worthy aspects to this post and blog, someone would choose something as asinine, pedantic, and irrelevant as this to comment on. I trust your next comment, if any, will be something much more productive.

      You might also want to review the Comment Policy page.

      Delete
  10. We had the right low threat ships to tackle these missions and we of course retired them, things like the excellent Cyclone class. Now we think of show the flag in a friendly port as a big time mission. LCS might do there so long as they don't break down on the way :-( but in reality our ships are either waiting on maintenance or to your point, NOT doing the big time mission. If LCS was properly armed it would have been easily overkill for some Cyclone class missions, but of course, the heavily armed Corvette seems to be in other countries not ours.

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