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Monday, June 2, 2025

Unmanned Nonsense

China is cranking out high end warships at an impressive rate … at least compared to our anemic shipbuilding effort.  That means they’re cranking out serious, high level firepower in various forms.  We, on the other hand, seem hell bent on ditching our high end firepower in favor of ever less lethal unmanned toys.  The latest idea I came across is Naval News website speculating about cancelling the Constellation program and replacing it with small, unmanned vessels.
 
With a price tag approaching $1.1 billion to $1.2 billion dollars each for the USS Constellation (FFG-62) frigate, Naval News asked RAND and CSIS if the Medium Unmanned Surface Vessel (MUSV) and the DARPA No Manning Required Ship (NOMARS) can replace the troubled FFG-62 frigate program.
 
… can MUSVs and NOMARS substitute for the FFG-62 frigates in terms of missions, roles, weapons coverage, and functionalities?[1]

As repeatedly documented on this blog, the Constellation is a poor excuse for a WARship but it is still worlds better than any unmanned asset.
 
The key point in the Naval News article is the following.
 
While the U.S. Navy, Congress, and the Department of Defense debate over whether to continue the FFG-62 program with government cost-cutting and downsizing …[1]
 
Mark Cancian, retired U.S. Marine Corps colonel, and Senior Advisor to CSIS’s Defense and Security Department answered this question via email to Naval News in March 2025. Cancian wrote, “Yes, the [FFG-62] Constellation program is a mess, and the Navy is reviewing it, along with other troubled shipbuilding programs.[1]

To be honest, this is the first I’ve heard of the Constellation being directly considered for termination.  I know that all programs are being reassessed by the new administration but this is somewhat ominous given the Constellation program’s stunningly poor performance to date.
 
That aside, let’s examine the Naval News question – with its implied answer of yes – and see whether unmanned assets can replace the Constellation.
 
 
Mission
 
Most missions require manned interaction, interpretation, and decision making.  No unmanned asset can even begin to approach that level of automated action.  The recent example of an unmanned automobile backing over and dragging an injured person after an auto accident thoroughly demonstrates this point.  We are nowhere near Terminator level artificial intelligence.
 
Most missions, peace or war, require human presence and reasoning:  managed response to provocative moves – such as close approaches by another vessel, foreign exercises, port visits, boarding (VBSS), rescue and salvage, ASW, tactical improvisation, etc.
 
As the article points out,
 
[Unmanned assets] work better as remote sensors and shooters connected to the fleet.[1]

 
Weapons
 
Let’s start with the simplest comparison which is VLS cells since those are the main weapon of any warship.  The Constellation will have 32 Mark 41 VLS cells for Tomahawk cruise missiles, ESSM, and Standard SM-6 missiles.  In comparison, the MUSV, which is the patrol boat size ISR vessel as opposed to the LUSV which is the corvette size missile barge, has no weapons provision at all, at the moment, and is too small to fit VLS cells even if we wanted to.
 
In addition, the Constellation will carry 16 rack mounted, small anti-ship missiles, presumably the Naval Strike Missile (NSM).  The MUSV, given its small size, might be able to carry some kind of rack mounted anti-ship missile system such as the NSM.  That would likely be 4-8 missiles, depending on how many racks could fit on the boat.
 
Constellation also has a Mk110 57 mm gun.  The MUSV could not mount any comparable gun.
 
Finally, the Constellation has a RAM anti-air weapon which probably could be mounted on a MUSV.
 
NOMARS, as exemplified by the USX-1 Defiant unmanned vessel, is claimed to have the capacity for 4-6 VLS, however, this is just a wish, not a reality, at the moment.  Further, if defense weapons and sensors are added, such as SeaRAM or CIWS, the space available for larger, more offensive weapons such as VLS, markedly decreases.
 
USX-1 Defiant / NOMARS


Seizure
 
We’ve already seen that China and Iran will not hesitate to seize unmanned assets so there is no reason to believe they wouldn’t seize an MUSV or NOMARS vessel.  The article also notes,
 
In peacetime, international law considers uncrewed vessels as derelict and subject to salvage.[1]

Repair
 
The following statement from the article says it all.
 
In wartime, it would be difficult to repair or retrieve such a vessel with a mechanical breakdown.[1]

Conclusion
 
It is, frankly, disappointing that anyone would even momentarily ask whether small, unmanned vessels can replace a frigate.  The lack of weapons and absence of human judgment as well as obvious maintenance issues unequivocally dictates the conclusion that unmanned vessels cannot replace a manned frigate, however flawed that frigate might be.  Unmanned vessels are, potentially, suited for ISR and acting as a very small weapons barge (mini-arsenal ship) if someone can come up with a secure communications system and a viable CONOPS.
 
What no one in the military seems to understand is that our emphasis on unmanned toys is the equivalent of asking whether an infantryman, armed with a knife, can replace an Abrams tank.
 
 
 
____________________________
 
[1]Naval News website, “Can Unmanned MUSVs and NOMARS Replace the Troubled FFG-62 Frigate Program?”, Peter Ong, 20-May-2025,
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2025/05/can-unmanned-musvs-and-nomars-replace-the-troubled-ffg-62-frigate-program/

42 comments:

  1. At this point, honestly I'd say the Connie should be killed. Its already become too little ship for too much money. This administration has so far been all about acting fast, but sadly so far I'm not really seeing it in the DOD. Not at the scale I'm hoping for. What I'm afraid of is that this unmanned nonsense is being believed, and won't be sent back to a scaled-down R&D lab effort, with some common sense groups doing realistic CONOP development and evaluations. Sure, someday a robot fleet may be the future, and I'm not saying to not investigate possibilities, but even with the recent leaps in technology and AI, actually useful autonomous warships are still relatively far in the future. We need a laser focus on maintaining what we have, and putting fully useful, capable new hulls in the water NOW.
    Frankly I'd like to see more quick large changes made, such as canceling Constellation (and the majority of unmanned programs too), reviewing the Ford program and a possible redesign to re-include steam cats, a return to proper airwing sizes, and a host of other changes. The SecDef and SecNav seem to be men of action, but, what info are they getting on what's working and what's not? Do all the failed/failing programs have gatekeepers and propaganda machines that make them invisible to scrutiny?? Even the smartest people can only act on the information they have, and if it's all glowing reports supplied by industry and uniformed fanboys, well...

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    1. Giving the Ford steam cats is pointless, they'd have to redesign the whole ship and at that point it isn't a Ford. May as well just build more Nimitzes.

      Is there any public data on how the Ford cats are actually doing these days? Is it still a problem?

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    2. "May as well just build more Nimitzes."

      And save $8B+ per ship !!!!

      "Is there any public data on how the Ford cats are actually doing these days? "

      According to DOT&E, the Navy has restricted the data and isn't even providing it to DOT&E which should tell you how it's doing.

      Delete
    3. The last Comgressional report I read DID say that there was "no significant improvements" to EMALS and AAG, so I guess they are hovering around 20% of cycles/failure. If that's true, Enterprise and follow-ons shouldn't have them!!!

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  2. I'm extremely dismayed with the Navy's squandering of money, and more importantly time, on this unmanned foolishness.

    Everything that I hear is that the next 5 years are the most dangerous as far as potential wars against peers like China or Russia.
    That comes from the defense establishment.

    So how are we preparing?
    We are spending our focus on technologies that aren't going to be ready at scale for at least a decade, and probably longer than that.
    How does that make sense?

    Who are we planning to fight in 2045? A space alien invasion?

    China has a host of problems, not the least of which is demographic. They are most dangerous in the near to mid term.
    Russia also has enormous demographic issues, and they are currently consuming their youth and their accumulated military surplus in Ukraine.

    The danger from those countries is now, not a decade or more down the road.

    In the meantime we spend our dwindling time to prepare for war on ridiculous projects that pad the R&D budgets of the defense establishment and won't pay off, if they ever do, until years in the future.

    Lutefisk

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  3. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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    1. "...you need BOTH manned and unmanned."

      Here is something unmanned that the US Navy is doing that looks like it might be useful, the Manta.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86a7AJvFtdQ

      But it's really not an unmanned submarine.
      If you think about it, in reality, it's just a very sophisticated minefield.

      Lutefisk

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    2. "Manta"

      Did you happen to notice what was conspicuously absent from the video? That's right, not a single mention of any potential actual mission capability. It appears to be yet another example of technology for its own sake.

      With a 9m wingspan, the useful body (meaning payload storage and operation) looks to be about a foot or two side and a few feet long. Of course, withing that body has to go the batteries, computer brain, sensors, communications, etc. I just don't see any useful payload space and without useful payload space, where's the mission?

      Without a mission, it's just techno-masturbation. Pardon the crudity.

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    3. " I just don't see any useful payload space and without useful payload space, where's the mission?"

      A few months ago I saw a video that showed how the Manta would work (of course I can't find it now).

      In it they showed the thing working in an area and when it heard a ship it would check the profile against its database. If it was a legit target it would launch a torpedo at it.

      Interesting possibilities, but that is why I called it a sophisticated minefield. Definitely a pain in the butt for the enemy, but hardly a war winner.

      Lutefisk

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    4. "when it heard a ship ... it would launch a torpedo at it."

      It doesn't look like it could carry more than a single torpedo which makes it just a very complex, very expensive, mobile mine. Even the mobility is not really a benefit. Moving around doesn't mean it can cover a larger area because every meter it moves in one direction for better coverage is a meter it leaves uncovered behind it. It can still only cover the exact same area; it simply shifts that area as it moves but the movement uncovers the area it was in. Far easier and cheaper just to lay several, cheap mines and call it done!

      Still seems like technology for its own sake.

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    5. " Far easier and cheaper just to lay several, cheap mines and call it done!"

      But....but....the R&D budget...

      Lutefisk

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    6. "Manta"

      I want to know, who in Navy leadership is looking at Manta and envisioning how it fits into high end combat? I'm willing to bet no one is or else we wouldn't continually see these kinds of idiotic things. My favorite, so far, is the tiny drone sailboat that is supposed to ... um ... well ... no one knows what it's supposed to do but ... ugh ... technology good ... Gronk want!

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  4. Wow, me wondering if the Constellation program is even worse off than what the USN is telling us if it's on the chopping block, this administration is looking at terminating programs that are far better off so FFX might be next to go! What it says about the USN is pretty damning though, this should be well within the USN capability to execute a simple FFG, that it got botched this bad is I think hitting rock bottom for USN acquisition programs...there's nothing really on this ship that's crazy tech or breaking new ground, it's a simple FFG!!!

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    1. "I think hitting rock bottom for USN acquisition programs"

      Come on, now. Don't sell the Navy short. They can reach an even lower rock bottom!

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    2. I mostly agree with you that expectations in terms of autonomous systems are running way too high now, what strikes me most is the total lack of attention to simple logistical issues (mechanical failures, combat damage ...). However I also think that there are some interesting tasks that AI can do and I haven't read much in this blog about it. The reason why I am saying this is as follows : there is more and more data generated by all military systems which leads me to a question : how do you make sense of it ? To me it is impossible to rely only on human beings for this because there is no way you can increase the number people doing this, and anyway they would need some serious training, which would make them very valuable for outside businesses to recruit them at an attractive salary.
      I think that you can have AI doing some, maybe a lot of this data analysis but sometimes the conclusions made by the AI will be wrong (hallucinations happen even in the best LLM). So the question turns into : how many mistakes and wrong conclusion are the sailors (soldiers, airmen) at the bottom of the food chain would be willing to accept ? Remember that human beings also make mistakes but that they are probably more tolerated by other human beings than mistakes made by computers.
      To be honest I haven't any defence equipment supplier and/or procurement executive/officer in US or foreign DoDs talking about this (correct me if I'm wrong), that's a shame.

      The Jacques Cassard Fan Club

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    3. "interesting tasks that AI can do and I haven't read much in this blog about it."

      Actually, you have although it hasn't, perhaps, been directly worded as such. I've constantly harped on the computing phenomenon of Garbage In, Garbage Out (GIGO) which makes all software suspect. AI is simply another piece of software subject to GIGO and, worse, the garbage output won't be questioned because a computer AI generated it! This is similar to today's generation of math-deficient kids who are unable to recognize an incorrect calculator result due to a mistaken input. They take the result as gospel because it came from a calculator that can't make a mistake. Well, the calculator didn't make the mistake, the input was wrong but you're so math-deficient that you can't even recognize an obviously incorrect result. Being from the last generation that was schooled without calculators, I was trained to estimate a result prior to the actual written calculation so that I could instantly spot an incorrect result. When I use a calculator, I already know the approximate result and the calculator just gives me the exact result for a calculation I can't do in my head.

      Another example is GPS. The Navy has become so dependent on GPS and so unable to conceive of an incorrect GPS reading that we've had several collisions and groundings due to GPS errors that the crew couldn't even recognize as incorrect.

      AI is GIGO on steroids. It takes a highly trained person to use AI without succumbing to the temptation to take the results on blind faith. We already have a generation of military leaders who are unable to formulate viable strategy and tactics and now we want to make them even more mentally incapable by making them dependent on AI?

      What are students learning when an AI generates a classroom report for them?

      The problems with AI are potentially insurmountable. That said, under the right circumstances, AI can be a useful aid but the danger of the aid turning into a dependency (drug!) is huge and, likely, unavoidable.

      What do you think? How do you address the addictive, debilitating dependency that would come from AI?

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    4. OK, I didn't understand your point about GIGO that way, never mind. I have to agree with you on the potentially addictive side but in my eyes that doesn't sort out the issue of loads of data and what to do with it. I believe there are two answers :
      The first one is obvious : educate your people, make sure that they obey orders but make also sure that they don't hesitate to question and doubt, I've always thought that you Americans people were good at that. War is made by people, however good or bad the weapons are. Israeli pilots have said after the six days war that the result would have been exactly the same if they had swept their aircrafts for Egyptians MiGs. Another point is the USS Vincennes shooting of the Iran Air Airbus : according to the book you recommended about the Spruance Class destroyers the Aegis system wouldn't have shot down the Airbus but the apparently poorly led sailors wouldn't believe it, so things can go both ways.
      The second is a bit optimistic but has proven to be true in a huge majority of cases until now : progress will make the doubts mostly irrelevant, let me give you an example : when I started working as an engineer in control systems we were using Texas Instruments fixed point TMS32020 processors and one thing you were told is not to make too many divisions because these were taking time and slow down the calculations, putting you at risk of a timeout, soon the TMS32030 arrived, people started programming in C and the division problem disappeared because of increased processing power and the ease of use of the C language instead of Assembler. So yeah, technology cured the technological issue and old hands (like me) worrying about the lack of understanding of the real issues by the younger people were wrong.

      The Jacques Cassard Fan Club

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    5. " what strikes me most is the total lack of attention to simple logistical issues"

      And that thought, alone, makes you a better Navy CNO than any we've had in recent decades!

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    6. " that doesn't sort out the issue of loads of data and what to do with it."

      AI could be useful in addressing that, HOWEVER, and this is a big HOWEVER, the value and usefulness placed on any piece of data, whether by AI or by human, depends on what weight you assign it. You get an unconfirmed (most data is unconfirmed in war) report of a single ship movement. Is it important? Do you weight that piece of data heavily (whether AI or human) or as a minor, almost irrelevant bit? How you weight it will determine the result and conclusion you come up with. The AI will generate the conclusion you pre-ordain by your weighting of the data. Until now, this weighting was done by humans and the best intel interpreters were those whose instincts about weighting were right more often than not. AI has no instincts. It will produce the conclusions that the programmers bias (weighting) put into it. You, the end user, has to be very cautious about accepting an AI conclusion and you had better know exactly what weight the AI gave the individual bits of data.

      For simple tasks, like determining an enemy's overall movement pattern based on hundreds of partial bits of data, an AI might be useful. For drawing conclusions on bits of seemingly unrelated data, an AI will be no better than a human, probably worse since it is incapable of applying 'gut feelings' to interpretation of data.

      Will we thoroughly train people to 'doubt' AI results? Not a chance in hell ! We'll train them to become dependent and not question.

      " progress will make the doubts mostly irrelevant"

      No disagreement there. Given enough time and failures, technology will constantly advance and improve and become reliable. In peacetime or in a lab, you can afford the luxury of waiting for that gradual process to take place. HOWEVER, restructuring your entire military to depend on AI, as the US military is attempting to do (yes, that's exactly what they're doing - take a look at the various theater/global wide strategy programs the military is attempting to implement) while it's still in its infancy and is still error-prone, is idiocy. Set up a small experimental pilot program? Sure! Restructure your military around an immature, unreliable technology because doing the same work with a human mind is hard? Insanity!

      Finally, consider this: Once upon a time, every kid in America could repair a car. Now, no one can. Technolgy advanced and we lost some capability. Those kids who could repair cars became aircraft and ship mechanics in WWII and saved us. Look at the backlogs at aircraft depots and dockyards. We can't repair anything now and if war came we'd have no pool of 'kid mechanics' waiting to save us. AI will just as surely take away some of our capabilities even while it, eventually, aids us. Is it worth the trade? That's a separate topic.

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    7. Good discussion. Hopefully, informative and useful for readers. Thanks for contributing!

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    8. "Aegis system wouldn't have shot down the Airbus but the apparently poorly led sailors wouldn't believe it"

      This is a different issue than data overload or interpretation. This is an example of scenario fulfillment wherein the operator sees what he expects/wants to see. The Vincennes crew saw the attack they expected to see despite the data to the contrary. Their minds filtered out any data or stimulus that didn't support the expected attack scenario. Their minds wouldn't let them see reality once the scenario expectation took hold.

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  5. Peter Ong has his own way of writing things for sure. The unmanned in actual wargaming and war planning is based on enhancing the manned assets. The DDG or FFG are supported by the adjunct unmanned magazine ship. You can place those assets out along a threat vector to make cheaper intercepts. You can move them without emitting to a better place to initiate a strike. You can send them back to reload while staying forward longer.

    The other reason this is potentially more useful to the U.S. and west in general is that we still out produce China in small boats and recreational boating by a wide margin.

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    1. What's the point of outproducing china in small boats when you have to sail those small boats halfway across the world in order to fight the Chinese? They're not going to come to our shores and fight us.

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    2. "The unmanned in actual wargaming and war planning is based on enhancing the manned assets."

      I would like to believe that's true but I've never seen an actual wargame report that detailed that. Do you have a reference?

      "cheaper intercepts"

      What is a 'cheaper' intercept? I've never heard that term.

      "You can send them back to reload while staying forward longer."

      Unless you're talking about a true, full arsenal ship with hundreds or thousands of VLS, this is not really true. For example, the LUSV which is supposed to be the missile barge, has only a small handful of missiles. It would require dozens of such vessels to mount a single strike against any significant target and that seems both unlikely and tactically risky/unworkable.

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    3. - The manned combatant stays forward, not the USV. The USV is reloading.

      - Cheaper intercept. The USV can engage with an ESSM rather than an SM-2 or SM-6, for instance. Even cheaper, seduce the vampire with decoys. Easier to decide on that option with an unmanned ship. On a manned ship its more a point defense, last ditch defense right now.

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    4. A small USV can range like a larger manned combatant.

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    5. "The manned combatant stays forward"

      That's not how naval forces fight. They don't just sit 'forward' waiting for something to happen. If they aren't executing a mission, they're at a home port replenishing, repairing, refitting. Whether they shoot the missiles or a missile barge shoots the missiles, they're all returning home at the end of the mission.

      "The USV can engage with an ESSM rather than an SM-2 or SM-6"

      Not likely. An ESSM has an effective range of 20 miles or so. An SM-6 has a range of 250 miles or so. Further, the missile barge has no fire control of its own. It can't engage independently of a host ship (Burke). Since the radar range of a Burke against sea skimmers (the most likely threat) is on the order of 15 miles, the missile barge can't actually extend the range of the Burke.

      You need to study the Navy's plans for the MUSV and LUSV and understand how they fit into the overall defense. The LUSV is far more likely to be used as a Tomahawk adjunct to the Burke and will never wander far from its side.

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    6. "A small USV can range like a larger manned combatant."

      Not with any useful purpose.

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    7. "The USV is reloading"

      You seem to have some fanciful notion of how an unmanned vessel would work that does not match reality. I urge you to come up to speed on Navy plans and capabilities before commenting again.

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  6. One way the US could avoid the Constellation debacle and reduce the unmanned issue is to get their allies to pay for the US contribution is get them to build ships for the USA. Japan and South Korea are shipbuilding powerhouses, and already use US systems and tech. They already build Arleigh Burke cruisers. SK already offered to build some for the USA. They can build them FOC or heavily discounted for the US.

    The Ukraine/Russia war has proven CNO right about electronic warfare. Aerial drones now use a spool of fibre option wire because radio wave controlled ones could be jammed. So drones/unmanned drones/vessels are not the answer to everything.

    Andrew

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    1. Remember when Russia got France to build two Mistral class amphibious assault ships for the Russian Navy, but we forced France to cancel the contract? Can we REALLY be certain Japan and South Korea will deliver any ships built for the US Navy- that China cannot force our Asian allies to cancel the contracts, the way we forced France to cancel the latter's contracts with the Russian Navy?

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    2. "that China cannot force our Asian allies to cancel the contracts"

      That is one concern. However, I'd be far more concerned with China obtaining classified information from foreign builders. Of course, it's not as if we're doing a good job of cyber security, either!

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  7. Could it be: we are in the tech & CONOP gap between ‘vulnerable traditional manned&$$ surface navy in peer level great distance war’ and ‘long distance surface loitering kamikazi vessels to overcome that distance’ ? For China it’s a 100-miles fight; for us it’s a 10000 miles fight; the requirements are different, therefore tech and CONOPs are different.

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    1. I'm not exactly sure what you're going after, here. Maybe try again and add a specific example?

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    2. (Tim here)
      There are two future eventualities China is preparing: war over Taiwan, and peace-able Taiwan unification w/ following Chinese globe trotting show of flag with surface navy.
      I believe Chinese surface navy is built for the latter.
      I believe, if war breaks out over Taiwan and US-China come to blow directly, Chinese surface navy won’t survive in the westpac water (all surface navies likely won’t survive in that water). Instead, to fight that war, China will rely on its land originated force ( missile and AF) and sub fleet to grab Taiwan & play keep- away.
      Back to us, if it’s not feasible to sail manned surface navy to grab Taiwan back, then there is no point rebuilding a surface navy for that purpose. Yet, we don’t have a solid CONOPs for that war (maybe long range AF is taking the lead here), so we’re in the gap, still flushing out how to fight over Taiwan.

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    3. "I believe Chinese surface navy is built for the latter."

      You're welcome to your opinion but even a mildly objective assessment shows that you are deluding yourself. China has already overbuilt, by several times, the fleet necessary to 'show the flag'. China is clearly building a fleet to go head to head with the US.

      " if war breaks out over Taiwan"

      I'm still not positive I'm understanding your point but you seem to be suggesting:

      1. The USN can't prevail in a war.
      2. The US surface navy is not properly built for a war.

      If the US fleet is not properly built for a war then, presumably, you believe that the Chinese fleet, which is a carbon copy of the US fleet, is also not properly built. You seem to suggest that with the statement that "all surface navies likely won’t survive".

      As a general observation, you may not be studying and properly understanding the role of navies in a Taiwan-centric war. Your statement that "all surface navies likely won’t survive" kind of confirm this. In contrast to your belief, both navies will play major - possibly decisive - roles in a Taiwan war.

      "China will rely on its land originated force"

      This is certainly true. However, what you seem not to grasp is that Chinese forces can ONLY arrive at Taiwan by ship and the job of the US Navy is to prevent that with carrier air, surface anti-ship missiles, and subs. At the moment, the US Navy has a very good chance of succeeding although they seem determined to squander their current advantages.

      "we don’t have a solid CONOPs ... still flushing out how to fight over Taiwan."

      This is true.

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    4. The strategic pic is clear: further away from China, more vulnerable Chinese surface navy is. Therefore, the most utility China can get out of its surface fleet is within 1000 miles of its shore, under the umbrella of its land missiles and AF (only under this circumstance, more ships the better). But still, relatively cheaper missile/mine/torp can take out these expensive ship, which we certainly will have plenty.

      Taiwan is only 100 miles from China. For our military to come in to such proximity to be able to destroy Chinese invasion force, that means China already failed its A2AD, therefore it probably won’t launch land invasion. Otoh, if China is launching cross strait invasion, that means China already taken out such surface/air re-enforcement from afar.

      Lastly, if China wars on Taiwan, it will blockade first by air assets, and forces Taiwan to knee and our military to commit to break the blockade ( that means, come in to fight). That means PLA will fight/win-lose on A2AD; Taiwan capitulation/or remain free is an after fact.

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    5. "able to destroy Chinese invasion force, that means China already failed its A2AD, ... if China is launching cross strait invasion, that means China already taken out such surface/air re-enforcement from afar."

      You're attempting to apply absolutes to combat and that's just not reality. Rarely (never?) does either the attacker or defender know they can achieve their pre-assault victory condition. Neither side can possible know all the vagaries and circumstances that lead to victory/defeat. For example, despite all our preparations, Normandy was still a fifty-fifty crap shoot. On the German side, despite all their defensive preparations, they couldn't know whether they could hold off the Allies. Similarly, Guadalcanal was an example of a contested island that neither side knew whether it could win.

      In fact, Guadalcanal bears many similarities to Taiwan. Both sides threw massive resources into the battle with neither having achieved the pre-assault conditions necessary to guarantee victory.

      At Guadalcanal, the Japanese attempted to counterattack and reinforce from the north while the US attempted to defend from the south. For Taiwan, the Chinese will attempt to attack and reinforce from the West while the US will attempt to counter from the East. Both sides will throw massive resources into the battle and neither side will be able to achieve pre-assault conditions sufficient to assure victory.

      Only the later war Pacific island assaults by the US came close to having pre-assault assured victory and that was because, at that point, the outcome of the war had already been decided although the Japanese tenacity assured that many more men would die to finalize the outcome.

      "the most utility China can get out of its surface fleet is within 1000 miles of its shore,"

      To a limited degree, that's true, however, the flip side of staying concentrated near one's shore is that you present a concentrated target at a fairly restricted and known location and your ships become floating drone targets. A navy operates most effectively when it uses the vast expanse of the open ocean to come and go where it wishes and where it can create advantages for itself.

      You might want to make a deeper study of WWII assault operations, in particular, and fleet usage, in general.

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  8. The ORCA program of unmanned submersibles is behind schedule with technical issues to solve & has a cost overruns. There was supposed to be 5 prototypes with mine laying as a potential mission. The navy wants these to be autonomous
    PB

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  9. Here in the UK you can't criticise 'unmanned systems'. You are seen as at best short sighted or more often stupid. To say AI is stupid and to work these things are not going to be small or cheap is heresy.

    For me the ship the USN should have built is the Danish Iver Huitfeldt. Built around American weapons, long range, simple diesels what is not to like? You could be the Absalon variant to support the Marines or SF, or as a basic ASW ship.

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    1. "the ship the USN should have built is the Danish Iver Huitfeldt. ... what is not to like?"

      I'm leery about any foreign ship due to the US experience with the FREMM frigate being so underbuilt, as the US has found out and the experience of the Norwegian Helge Ingstad which was a fatally flawed design in terms of damage control and watertight containment (the shaft issue). This has led me to doubt, perhaps unfairly, all foreign ships. If someone wants to give me specs on the Iver Huitfeldt compartmentation, steel thickness, internal bulkheads, watertight schemes, weight margins, stability, and reserve buoyancy, I'd evaluate it but, for the moment, I'm skeptical.

      That aside, a frigate, any frigate, is not a priority need for the US Navy with its global focus as opposed to local waters defense.

      If you're suggesting the Iver Huitfeldt would have been a better basis for the Constellation project, it all depends on how extensive the changes would have to be to make it suitable for US service. This is where the FREMM failed the US. The changes required to bring the FREMM into compliance with USN survivability standards proved too extensive and costly. What would the Iver Huitfeldt require? Who knows?

      "support the Marines or SF"

      This is not a US need.

      "basic ASW ship"

      I doubt it would be suitable. An ASW ship has to be built from the first rivet with nothing but ASW in mind. Every piece of equipment needs to be quieted and acoustically isolated. The wake needs to be suppressed, cavitation needs to be minimized, ship quieting in the form of Prairie/Masker or something similar, two SH-60 size helos, if it has any, and so on. No common hull or modular ship has that. If it isn't purpose built, it isn't a good ASW ship.

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