tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post7234480100400835147..comments2024-03-28T07:56:09.239-07:00Comments on Navy Matters: Kongsberg Naval Strike MissileComNavOpshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-20164739726211099382017-04-26T05:39:10.696-07:002017-04-26T05:39:10.696-07:00The USN needs a range of ASCMs to deal with severa...The USN needs a range of ASCMs to deal with several different threats from CV size down to FACs.<br /><br />*If* NSM works, and *if* it can be purchased for reasonable cost, then we should buy it in quantity and deploy it on DDGs as well.<br /><br />The USN will still need a much larger ASCM, but something like NSM is needed now, and in quantity. Make mine a 12-pack.<br /><br />GABAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-64769903241127295632017-04-25T17:17:39.183-07:002017-04-25T17:17:39.183-07:00The problem is in such an environment, would be w...The problem is in such an environment, would be whistleblowers must live in constant fear of reprisals. AltandMainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01014823246265859953noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-8719824644945221242017-04-25T17:14:47.676-07:002017-04-25T17:14:47.676-07:00WOW! Don't need much imagination to wonder how...WOW! Don't need much imagination to wonder how much sh%t has been swept under the rug over the years. NICOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14567491909555759918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-61458731983634726102017-04-25T17:06:21.225-07:002017-04-25T17:06:21.225-07:00One other thought about the LCS. If this is just a...One other thought about the LCS. If this is just a makework project, then any whistleblowers that come out will probably be retaliated against.<br /><br /><br />Just see this:<br /><br />http://www.pogo.org/our-work/letters/2017/defense-secretary-mattis.html<br /><br />I wonder if there is anything else going on behind closed doors.<br /><br />AltandMainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01014823246265859953noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-69761371904561841012017-04-25T14:58:27.065-07:002017-04-25T14:58:27.065-07:00I think that at this point, the LCS is a sunk cost...I think that at this point, the LCS is a sunk cost. It's best to stop the program and start from scratch all over again on a better ship.<br /><br />Maybe this would work for the existing hulls, but I would not advise building anymore. Frankly, I wouldn't be sure it works until DOT&E (provided that's not compromised) says it does. AltandMainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01014823246265859953noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-73630938646669710792017-04-25T09:50:57.859-07:002017-04-25T09:50:57.859-07:00Which was a great post. Excluding all other issues...Which was a great post. Excluding all other issues, this could make our entire model of war a paper tiger unless we somehow draft these contractors. How many sorties would it take for our weapons systems to start falling offline? <br />If we are contractor dependent with the F-18; which was supposed to be built to be easy to maintain, the F-35 could be a disaster. <br /><br /><br />To sum up, so far as I can tell we have:<br /><br />A) Anti Air systems we don't know will work against modern ASCM threats. <br /><br />B) Questionable long term usability of aircraft/radar systems without civilian contractors<br /><br />C) No good current ASCM<br /><br />D) Atrophied ASW skills<br /><br />E) Aging airwings of questionable size<br /><br />F) No current over-arching strategy against which we can measure new designs<br /><br />G) Questionable maintenance of what we have. <br /><br />Have I missed anything? This doesn't even touch things like the F-35/Zumwalt. <br /><br />JFWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16095723023404412328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-28513119684381516002017-04-25T09:32:30.769-07:002017-04-25T09:32:30.769-07:00Even if we opted to construct forward operating ba...Even if we opted to construct forward operating bases for LCS maintenance, what would we do for the contractor technicians that are required for the advanced (and a lot of basic) maintenance? Civilian contractors, by law, are not allowed in forward combat zones and the Navy has not even pretended to try to train sufficiently advanced technicians.<br /><br />Do a little research some time and check out how many contractors sail on deployments with aircraft carriers. We're going to be in a world of hurt when war comes and they all stay home. Aircraft (I'm looking at you, F-35) are going to be grounded because we lack the highly trained factory techs who do the advanced maintenance. This is one of the dirty little secrets of our modern military. We are vulnerably dependent on contractors, as I recently posted.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-19188718442378214282017-04-25T09:13:36.845-07:002017-04-25T09:13:36.845-07:00"As best I can tell, it's around 35-38 kt..."As best I can tell, it's around 35-38 kts, depending on load (weight), sea state, etc."<br /><br />Which highlights how deeply compromised this is. We have a ship that has the same speed profile as some WWII Destroyers, but that sacrificed a *ton* to get there that is operationally relevant: Range; maintainability, etc. <br /><br />Maybe the odd class is different; I've read it has better range. <br /><br />I have been a proponent in the past of trying to keep the LCS line going; maybe as a peacetime type 3rd rate cruiser to do anti-piracy things; all because its a line that is running and maybe we could make them more cheaply. <br /><br />But the design is a hard one to love. <br /><br />Even with more firepower, it has so many limitations that I wonder if the logistics strain/vulnerabilities will be counter productive. <br /><br />If this were something that could be put on an island with a minimal footprint like a PT 'base' then it becomes more interesting. <br /><br />As it has to have larger bases where contractors can come in and do work, and limited range/endurance... I don't know. <br /><br />It would be very interesting to see how they work this out in war games. JFWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16095723023404412328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-23125375801285820292017-04-25T06:31:26.813-07:002017-04-25T06:31:26.813-07:00This doesn't impact the NSM, at the moment.This doesn't impact the NSM, at the moment.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-7377765251459248872017-04-25T06:30:23.702-07:002017-04-25T06:30:23.702-07:00"is it possible to load 1-2 cargo containers ..."is it possible to load 1-2 cargo containers filled with fuel into their storage space and hook up a hose to their internal fuel tank?"<br /><br />Possible? Yes. Would anyone want to do it? Not likely. Fuel tanks on ships are generally deep in the ship for protection, have dedicated fire suppression systems, have pressure venting, may have seawater compensation, etc. Simply sitting a big tank of fuel high up in the open with no special protections is tantamount to carrying a fuel-air bomb around. Good luck getting crew to serve on an LCS with that!ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-40038430246066858732017-04-25T06:27:29.104-07:002017-04-25T06:27:29.104-07:00As best I can tell, it's around 35-38 kts, dep...As best I can tell, it's around 35-38 kts, depending on load (weight), sea state, etc.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-41607635061913845912017-04-25T06:17:32.934-07:002017-04-25T06:17:32.934-07:00What is the current top speed of LCS? Are we down ...What is the current top speed of LCS? Are we down to sub 40kts? <br />JFWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16095723023404412328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-15592101889672623382017-04-25T06:16:10.846-07:002017-04-25T06:16:10.846-07:00Given the "success" of the anti swarm te...Given the "success" of the anti swarm tests thus far I'm not all that bothered. <br /><br />That said, I'd like to avoid just bolting stuff on things till we have an idea, any idea, it will work. <br /><br />Right now it seems that the Navy is throwing things at the wall and seeing what sticks. JFWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16095723023404412328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-71756244747997853142017-04-25T04:55:49.515-07:002017-04-25T04:55:49.515-07:00Current proposal mockup of LCS-2 frigate design ca...Current proposal mockup of LCS-2 frigate design can be see at ~3:30 on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1B-vNx_WUoQ<br /><br />Basically, the notched the flight deck at the back to create an additional weapons space and plan on putting 2 sets of launchers back there with another 2 sets in front behind the existing space for VL. In addition they added 2x8 MK41 VLS on top and a fire controller radar for the Mk110. So all told 16 VLS, 16-20 AShM, 2x25mm Mk38 RWS, SeaRAM, and Mk110, which is a fair bit of firepower at least. Who knows how much all of that will end up costing.atshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11410880091736531848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-56982253374598210062017-04-25T04:38:07.942-07:002017-04-25T04:38:07.942-07:00CNO, actual speeds for supersonic missiles on a lo...CNO, actual speeds for supersonic missiles on a low profile aren't significantly higher than high sub-sonic missiles, pushing into high mach at sea level takes enormous amounts of energy and none of the SS AShM can do it. So most SS missiles are really only SS on high top attack patterns. <br /><br />Second, SS missile tend to have horrendous IR signatures, which is simply a by product at moving at such speeds, making them easier to detect.<br /><br />Third, radar really doesn't provide any better targeting than IIR at the ranges required. And radar provides no help in targeting ships when you can't see them, the only case where GPS/INS matters. That's largely the reason that newer AShM are switching over to IIR, it provides better terminal targeting than radar and is passive.<br />atshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11410880091736531848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-54708041840067247502017-04-25T04:15:08.708-07:002017-04-25T04:15:08.708-07:00Navy ASCM's big picture?
The Navy is scrambli...<br />Navy ASCM's big picture?<br /><br />The Navy is scrambling to counter what it sees as a rising threat to American naval dominance by the Chinese and Russians and assessed the existing Harpoon missile did not have the range or survivability to defeat new enemy ships. To address the urgent operational need for the development of an air-launched, long-range, anti-surface warfare missile the Navy have taken over funding of the DARPA LRASM with the $1.5 billion March 2016 Offensive Anti-Surface Warfare Increment 1, OASuW Increment 1, contract. DARPA had picked the Lockheed Martin’s USAF AGM-158B JASSM-ER as host for the all important passive BAE Systems seeker head. USAF plans IOC on Air Force B-1 bombers in 2018 and Navy F/A-18E/F in 2019. <br /><br />The Navy OASuW Increment 1 program with LRASM is for only 110 operational missiles to meet the urgent operational needs for aircraft only, the big prize is OASuW Increment 2 which will be used by aircraft, surface warships and possibly submarines.<br /><br />Now that the Pentagon has acknowledged as high priority anti-surface warfare missiles with proposed budgets you have Raytheon became US agent for the Kongsberg NSM for the LCS competition and OASuW Increment 2 as replacement for the Harpoon plus new Tomahawk for longer range in surface ships and submarines, possible the JSM for the F-35A and C, will not fit in the shorter F-35B weapons bay.<br /><br />Boeing the incumbent with the old Harpoon has the new update the II+ with its net enabled capability/data link is in flight testing with F-18E/F and is due for integration with the P-8A, with its active radar-homing seeker and an extended-range variant that uses a lighter warhead and improved turbojet engine to approximately double the Harpoon’s range from 67nm to 134nm. Boeing is offering the Navy the Harpoon Block II+ ER for the Navy’s OTH anti-ship missile in competition with NSM and LRASM for the LCS. The Harpoon's perceived disadvantage is that it uses an active seeker whereas both NSM and LRASM are passive. <br /><br />Raytheon has also partially funded a new seeker for the Tomahawk and has undergone trials The seeker, coupled with mid-course in-flight target updates, to autonomously detect, track and intercept a moving target on either land or sea, understand includes two-way data link, terrain navigation, digital scene-matching cameras, inertial navigation system, infrared guidance, RF targeting and GPS system and new active radar. Navy’s 2017 budget request included $439 million to further develop and integrate the software and hardware seeker for IOC FY2022. <br /><br />So the LM LRASM will face stiff competition from Raytheon Tomahawk and may be the JSM or Harpoon II+ER if Navy decides the pursue the lower cost option of just updating ~ 3500 Tomahawk active seekers trumps the LRASM advantages of a sophisticated passive seeker and lower RCS.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12567148391327455726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-67190193855065498012017-04-24T21:02:33.732-07:002017-04-24T21:02:33.732-07:00There are a few limitations to the NSM, but also s...There are a few limitations to the NSM, but also some niche design constraints which drove aspects of the development.<br /><br />For example, fighting in the fjords and around islands (rather than the blue water Harpoon). Radar terminal seekers wouldn't do much good in such an environment - you'd be just as likely to hit an island or a fishing boat as the planned target. <br /><br />What will be interesting to see is if they add a mid course datalink update option, to narrow that terminal search basket down. If it can be done for the JSOW then it should be possible to add such connectivity (and reduce dependence on GPS).<br /><br />The real sobering thing here is that Norway developed a Penguin SSM replacement that is broadly suitable as a Harpoon ASM/SSM replacement. They did it on a relatively shoestring budget, and have a weapon that is fit for purpose.<br /><br />Meanwhile the RN is about to lose it SSM capability when its Harpoons life-expire in 2018. And the USN hasn't even been fitting Harpoons to its main class of surface combatants. Nor does it have a replacement (beyond the LRASM, which will solve all the ills, apparently; but it is also managed by LM, IIRC). As such, expect LRASM to be behind schedule and over budget, purchased in numbers too small to fully replace the Harpoon in USN service.<br /><br />Seeing what the Norwegians did, and what they spent to achieve it, this begs the question - why couldn't the US do something similar? Just something to give credible SSM capabilities to its major combatants while the uber-next-gen-weapons are developed.<br /><br />The Harpoon Block III was an option. VLS-capable. An old-ish weapon, but some SSM option is likely better than nothing.<br /><br />Instead, all we have is a laundry list of cancelled programs, and legacy missiles that are life-expired.<br /><br />NSM might be the affordable 90% solution we need.AMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00469631687812986881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-18952996108673855562017-04-24T19:28:52.326-07:002017-04-24T19:28:52.326-07:00On the issue of LCS range, is it possible to load ...On the issue of LCS range, is it possible to load 1-2 cargo containers filled with fuel into their storage space and hook up a hose to their internal fuel tank? So you have 4-12 missiles per LCS, then you secretly load extra fuel, and the LCS moves a few hundred nm further than where the enemy thinks it's proper range should allow it to be.<br /><br />AndrewAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-50082696805624151202017-04-24T16:38:55.492-07:002017-04-24T16:38:55.492-07:00"Having a greater volume of missiles is valua..."Having a greater volume of missiles is valuable in that the larger salvos are more likely to exhaust the enemy's defensive magazines."<br /><br />Proponents of supersonic missiles would say that fewer missiles are needed because more will get through and each one that does will be many times more effective. Again, only combat or some very realistic testing will settle the issue!ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-22744090516275221082017-04-24T16:37:24.891-07:002017-04-24T16:37:24.891-07:00Good observation. I hadn't picked up on that....Good observation. I hadn't picked up on that. Of course, it's just a proposal, at the moment, and the NSM may not be selected or, if it is, it/they may be located in other spots. The launchers can be simply bolted to the deck anywhere. Still, good observation!ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-20817490933384861622017-04-24T16:21:42.385-07:002017-04-24T16:21:42.385-07:00Having a greater volume of missiles is valuable in...Having a greater volume of missiles is valuable in that the larger salvos are more likely to exhaust the enemy's defensive magazines.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-82613858700532379522017-04-24T15:42:20.895-07:002017-04-24T15:42:20.895-07:00It appears that some of those concept integrations...It appears that some of those concept integrations will occupy the Weapon Zones and thus cost the ship the GMM and SSMM modules, eroding the swarm/self defense capability.M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/05827364954775864818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-76857718630618130062017-04-24T12:47:36.200-07:002017-04-24T12:47:36.200-07:00NICO, yes, this is almost the PT boat scenario of ...NICO, yes, this is almost the PT boat scenario of WWII. The PT boats were successful, to they extent they were, due to expendability (low cost), numbers, and extremely forward basing, none of which apply to the LCS.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-46296894599808083962017-04-24T12:45:55.236-07:002017-04-24T12:45:55.236-07:00The JSM is a different version than the naval NSM ...The JSM is a different version than the naval NSM unless you've read that the RF seeker will be added to the NSM?ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-81828517940101962312017-04-24T12:28:47.629-07:002017-04-24T12:28:47.629-07:00Sounds like a great idea but not only endurance bu...Sounds like a great idea but not only endurance but how long can a LCS "skulk" around before being spotted? Once spotted, LCS is more than likely toast. <br /><br />It would need to be smaller to be really LO so have a very low probability of detection or maybe bigger with more capability to able to fight it out and survive being spotted....NICOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14567491909555759918noreply@blogger.com