tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post4909883606412548419..comments2024-03-28T07:56:09.239-07:00Comments on Navy Matters: Battle Damage - Savo IslandComNavOpshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comBlogger69125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-66288524224027691832018-06-21T11:58:13.210-07:002018-06-21T11:58:13.210-07:00Kinda related per CNBC China to deploy railgun by ...Kinda related per CNBC China to deploy railgun by 2025 with at sea resting underway Now this could be big or true and it actually worksD M Lewishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07944039365612613761noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-22368716060804904212018-06-16T10:30:20.353-07:002018-06-16T10:30:20.353-07:00You will not get any arguments from me on that for...You will not get any arguments from me on that for sureD M Lewishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07944039365612613761noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-22913331858740362172018-06-16T07:24:30.667-07:002018-06-16T07:24:30.667-07:00Unfortunately, in a display of stupidity that is a...Unfortunately, in a display of stupidity that is almost beyond belief, the Navy opted to develop a 155 mm gun that was incompatible with any other 155 mm munition. Thus, no existing 155 mm munition, no matter how modified, can work with the Zumwalt gun.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-3529195398560970352018-06-16T06:58:03.063-07:002018-06-16T06:58:03.063-07:00WasntWasn't too excited just saw a possible ch...WasntWasn't too excited just saw a possible chance for the Zummies to get something that actually works and was cheaper seeing as it would be used with army cooperation would seem to make sense just like using Hellfire made sense for LCS D M Lewishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07944039365612613761noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-18980506052828153972018-06-16T06:13:41.197-07:002018-06-16T06:13:41.197-07:00Before you get too excited, the gun is an Army dev...Before you get too excited, the gun is an Army developmental effort. The Army develops lots of things and they almost invariably fail to make it to production.<br /><br />The extended range round is a rocket adaptation of an existing 155 mm round. As such, it is incompatible with the Zumwalt 155 mm gun.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-67938742536487168842018-06-16T06:06:13.039-07:002018-06-16T06:06:13.039-07:00That's an interesting question. Fuzing has go...That's an interesting question. Fuzing has gotten a bit more sophisticated but that doesn't make the shell any more lethal. There are shaped charge warheads available but those aren't needed since warships are no longer armored. There's been some improvement in explosive chemistry but nothing that's night and day better. Ranges have been increased although often at the expense of shell size and range improvements don't increase inherent lethality.<br /><br />So, overall, I'd say no.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-14268576762091548782018-06-15T23:42:44.237-07:002018-06-15T23:42:44.237-07:00I wonder if modern shell technology would change h...I wonder if modern shell technology would change how many shells it takes to sink a warship. Just look at the anti tank grenades/shells over the last 20 years. They aren't the same as the shells of the 1940's.<br /><br />AndrewAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-12673427707532575802018-06-15T20:46:51.567-07:002018-06-15T20:46:51.567-07:00Fyi per fox news the army is trying a new 155mm gu...Fyi per fox news the army is trying a new 155mm gun and round with a 70k range possible round for the Zummies it uses a ram jet supposedly D M Lewishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07944039365612613761noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-52185200330576008792018-06-15T06:05:36.168-07:002018-06-15T06:05:36.168-07:0027% of all kills were by guns and you consider tha...27% of all kills were by guns and you consider that not significant? Are you sure you don't have a pre-conceived notion and are trying to make the data fit when it doesn't?<br /><br />The data becomes even more overwhelming if we remove the most common aircraft that didn't even have a gun, the Navy's F-4B/N/J/S Phantom, and, therefore, couldn't get a gun kill. Those aircraft accounted for 40 kills. Removing that, the gun kills among aircraft that actually had guns, are 57 out of 175 which is 33%.<br /><br />Be objective and let the data draw the conclusion. It's clear that among aircraft armed with guns, gun kills were a significant factor and prove that the US military's pre-war belief that we were in a new era of missile only combat was utterly wrong.<br /><br />Even the Navy admitted they were wrong as subsequent aircraft designs all returned to internal guns until the Navy opted to repeat its mistake and eliminate the gun.<br /><br />Really, gun kills in Vietnam isn't even a debatable point - it's simple data.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-80447445786573504252018-06-15T04:48:04.055-07:002018-06-15T04:48:04.055-07:00The mentioned qty of 8" hits is a bit surpris...The mentioned qty of 8" hits is a bit surprising to me, as I have read repeatedly that cruisers with 6" guns were superior in night combat because of the much higher rate of fire (8" was superior in daylight at long distances).<br />Maybe this was merely a USN-specific conclusion, as the USN had an unusually fast-firing 6" L/47 gun, and the Japanese did just fine with 8"?<br /><br /><br />BTW, little hint; many sources point out that the reasonable and lethal shell effect against warships i combat begins at 139-155 mm, not at 203 mm. I suppose it depends on one's expectations, but 127 mm and smaller are indeed not known for ship-killing effect.S Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03359796414832859686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-81356985345126393422018-06-14T23:51:55.798-07:002018-06-14T23:51:55.798-07:00I was specifically on F4 gun kills.
But even so, ...I was specifically on F4 gun kills.<br /><br />But even so, a quarter isnt exactly all that special.<br />Im not against guns, but its simply incorrect to say the all missile air force didnt work and the addition of guns saved the day.TrTnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-54928233295245247712018-06-14T17:10:37.818-07:002018-06-14T17:10:37.818-07:00"Armor buys longevity in battle. "
Mayb..."Armor buys longevity in battle. "<br /><br />Maybe, but the Savo Island battle clearly doesn't support this, as no cruiser was shot at from a range within his immunity zone against 8" shells (if any involved cruiser had any such immunity zone at all).<br /><br />The only use of armour in that battle was about stopping 5" shells (which you claim do not sink ships, and figuratively that's correct) or (rather rarely) limiting fragmentation effects.<br /><br />The main armour plating of those cruisers (belt and deck armour) was of very little consequence to 8" shells other than triggering the fuses.S Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03359796414832859686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-16427241188958788062018-06-14T15:22:28.135-07:002018-06-14T15:22:28.135-07:00Fire is what prevents flooding damage control. Fi...Fire is what prevents flooding damage control. Fire is what cuts off damage control personnel from getting to the flooding. Fire is what prevents pumps from working. Fire is what prevents damage control teams from shoring up bulkheads and holes in the hull. Prolonged fire is fought with ... water(!) which over time contributes to flooding. Fire is what kills valuable damage control personnel. Fire is what makes the atmosphere toxic which prevents wholesale damage control efforts. Fire is what causes secondary explosions which cause more flooding, burst pipes, dead damage control personnel, etc.<br /><br />Very few ships that survive the initial attack are lost to pure flooding. They're lost to fire.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-42031263702038805332018-06-14T15:14:18.252-07:002018-06-14T15:14:18.252-07:00I'm not sure where you got your numbers but he...I'm not sure where you got your numbers but here's a link to a compilation of every aerial victory in Vietnam: <a href="http://myplace.frontier.com/~anneled/usvictor.html" rel="nofollow">Aerial Kills</a><br /><br />The list totals 215 kills and credits 57 of them to guns. That's 1 in 3.8 or 27%. Over a quarter of the kills were by guns. That's pretty significant. That's 57 kills that might have gotten away or, worse, turned into dead Americans had they not had the option of using a gun.<br /><br />You might want to recheck your numbers.<br /><br />The E-model F-4 Phantom, the main aircraft of the Vietnam war had an internal gun with 640 rounds, according to Wiki. The latter F-14 Tomcat had an internal gun with 675 rounds. The F-15C Eagle has an internal gun with 940 rounds. I don't know what the European thinking is but the US thinking, until the F-35, was that guns were quite useful and they had plenty of ammunition.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-41447550111514544382018-06-14T14:52:45.466-07:002018-06-14T14:52:45.466-07:00Conceptually, you're on the right track!Conceptually, you're on the right track!ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-66744336860709147102018-06-14T14:08:19.369-07:002018-06-14T14:08:19.369-07:00Japanese Shells in the 1905 war against Russia set...Japanese Shells in the 1905 war against Russia set the Russian ships aflame, which they had little defence against and which played havoc with their operation.<br /><br />But no amount of fire will sink a ship<br />Ships only sink when water gets in.<br /><br />"Flooding is relatively easily contained."<br />They said that when they built the titanic<br /><br /><br />*****<br />Although its important to note that ships arent water tight.<br />Knock the pumps out (which fire and shells will do) and eventually they will sinkTrThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07316335177828136131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-36874546946284844412018-06-14T13:56:21.760-07:002018-06-14T13:56:21.760-07:00Don't forget the USS Belknap fire.Don't forget the <a href="https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Belknap_%28CG-26%29?wprov=sfla1" rel="nofollow">USS Belknap</a> fire.Larryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13296988746956477216noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-88056979500005104152018-06-14T13:53:35.906-07:002018-06-14T13:53:35.906-07:00http://defencewithac.blogspot.com/2017/01/air-comb...http://defencewithac.blogspot.com/2017/01/air-combat-over-vietnam.html<br /><br />Although the introduction of all missile fighters to Vietnam was, bumpy, it was far from a failure, and the F4 was not wildly improved by the addition of a gun, which at the end of Vietnam, accounted for roughly 1 in 7 kills. Not exactly the game changer<br /><br />All a gun offers is ammunition capacity.<br />The Eurofighter Typhoon has 150 rounds, and will expel them all in 5 seconds, but it still needs to get the gun in the cross hair and hold it there long enough to put fire downrange, the same problem you have with a missile, but you can just be rather freer with your fire without upsetting the quartermaster.TrThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07316335177828136131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-44208719040637729022018-06-14T13:48:40.852-07:002018-06-14T13:48:40.852-07:00A backup antenna in an armored box that could be e...A backup antenna in an armored box that could be extended when needed might be useful option to explore. Missile silos and LCCs have such armored backup antennas, though they are much simpler radio comms.Larryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13296988746956477216noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-7953546447846618422018-06-14T07:00:36.598-07:002018-06-14T07:00:36.598-07:00Somewhat related note, another UAE ship was hit ag...Somewhat related note, another UAE ship was hit again in Yemen....can't get more info yet or pictures. <br /><br />https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/973944/world-war-3-Yemen-Houthi-rebels-attack-UAE-military-vessel-Red-Sea-Hodeidah-war-conflictNICOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14567491909555759918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-4453424678419585302018-06-14T06:27:15.995-07:002018-06-14T06:27:15.995-07:00Also don't forget the SM6 "wonder" w...Also don't forget the SM6 "wonder" weapon that sank the Rueben James during a testD M Lewishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07944039365612613761noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-92165878219328887212018-06-14T05:52:22.096-07:002018-06-14T05:52:22.096-07:00Conversely, imagine what might not have happened i...Conversely, imagine what might not have happened if the drone had hit a few to several inches of armor.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-88435984270553811942018-06-14T05:22:31.390-07:002018-06-14T05:22:31.390-07:00Or the Taiwaneese Hsuing Feng III missile
Or the Taiwaneese Hsuing Feng III missile<br /><br />Storm Shadowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10999164214935172607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-21894009262158646642018-06-14T05:20:32.777-07:002018-06-14T05:20:32.777-07:00As for testing against Super sonic ASM - easy, jus...As for testing against Super sonic ASM - easy, just go to Japan, they have one new type. <br /><br />Powered by a ramjet engine, the missile can reportedly reach top speeds of up to Mach 3 and has an operational range of 80 nautical miles <br /><br />https://thediplomat.com/2018/01/japan-ready-to-mass-produce-new-supersonic-anti-ship-missile/Storm Shadowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10999164214935172607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-55622711965409759622018-06-14T05:18:00.357-07:002018-06-14T05:18:00.357-07:00Remember that time a BGM-74 target drone struck a ...Remember that time a BGM-74 target drone struck a Tico by mistake and penetrated the superstructure just with kinetic energy! On the picture below you can see the hole.<br /><br />https://news.usni.org/2013/11/19/damage-assessment-still-underway-target-drone-collision-navy-cruiser<br /><br />Engineers with U.S. Navy are still tallying the damage caused when a 13-foot target drone punched a three to four foot hole in the side of guided missile cruiser USS Chancellorsville (CG-62) on Saturday,<br /><br />So imagine what would happen if that was a supersonic Anti ship missile<br /><br /> Storm Shadowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10999164214935172607noreply@blogger.com