tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post4394339042758138976..comments2024-03-28T07:56:09.239-07:00Comments on Navy Matters: Let's 3D Print Some StupidComNavOpshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-85875889768686927152017-10-03T13:32:24.744-07:002017-10-03T13:32:24.744-07:00"The Army recently 3D-printed a grenade launc..."The Army recently 3D-printed a grenade launcher ..."<br /><br />And took days to do it! From a Popular Mechanics article about the event,<br /><br />"The grenade launcher barrel and receiver took about 70 hours to print and then required 5 hours of post-print finishing."<br /><br />Over three days to manufacture one item! And, that was not simple 3D printing. It used very sophisticated instruments that would not be remotely suitable for field combat use. Plus, it still needed non-printable parts.<br /><br />It was a PR stunt.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-20655586080064726912017-10-01T17:29:35.211-07:002017-10-01T17:29:35.211-07:00"This just strikes me as technology for its o..."This just strikes me as technology for its own sake or a solution looking for a problem where none exists."<br /><br />Thank you! I'm not against new technology when it will help the soldier, sailor, airman, or marine do his job. But this 'got to have it because it's new tech' is out of control.<br /><br />MM-13BAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-41530913690569726432017-10-01T11:18:47.970-07:002017-10-01T11:18:47.970-07:00That some scientists want to play around with this...That some scientists want to play around with this is fine - stupid but fine. However, when it takes 48 Marines away from precious combat training and wastes their time learning 3D printing, then I have a problem with it.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-85872019632286674932017-10-01T11:17:04.215-07:002017-10-01T11:17:04.215-07:00My problem is as much with the underlying concept ...My problem is as much with the underlying concept as the exact parts that can be made. The idea of pulling combat soldiers off the line to make parts that can just as easily (more easily, in fact) be brought with supplies is just silly. For that one part that no one thought would break but did and, therefore, no one thought to bring a spare, that's just not worth the transport of a printer, power supply, medium, and pulling soldiers off the line. In that rare case, in combat, there's probably dozens of the same "thing" that have been disabled and the missing part can be pulled off any of them. Combat has a way of supplying loads of unintended spare parts!<br /><br />This just strikes me as technology for its own sake or a solution looking for a problem where none exists.<br /><br />A high end additive manufacturing machines that might actually be useful are not suitable for combat field conditions. Most such machines require exquisite care, scrupulous cleanliness, skilled technicians, and advanced programmers - not the conditions normally found in the field in combat.<br /><br />Sometimes it's not necessary to wait to see how something will play out. Sometimes it's obvious how it will play out. Now, 20-50 years from now when 3D printing has advanced to Star Trek-like matter replicators, then we can re-evaluate.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-23752843284106109982017-10-01T11:08:27.011-07:002017-10-01T11:08:27.011-07:00Okay, that's fine. I think you've surmise...Okay, that's fine. I think you've surmised my answer. There is very little use for a giant, slow moving, non-stealthy object in combat. It might be useful as a rear area transport but the slow speed and inability to operate at speed in storms or headwinds probably negates even that. <br /><br />Another possible use is as an elevated sensor platform. A ship could release and hover a blimp with a radar high overhead and extend the radar horizon. However, being so easily detected (plus radiating a radar signal), it would give away the location of the host ship. It could be sent many miles away but it would be non-survivable.<br /><br />The last idea is as a rear area communications relay but I'm not sure there's really any need for a rear area comm relay - in the forward battlefield, yes, but in the rear, probably not.<br /><br />Sorry, but I just can't think of any viable combat use.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-10516181968702125332017-10-01T09:22:47.863-07:002017-10-01T09:22:47.863-07:00Being new to 3D printing/additive machining, one u...Being new to 3D printing/additive machining, one usually starts by making simpler parts first to gain experience to make more complex parts. Making parts for a drone is just a starting point. And, I wouldn't make too much out of the conversion rate as the excess material can be recycled and reused.<br /><br />AM has some advantages over traditional machining methods, like making many parts at once or makings parts whole by eliminating welds and complex machining setups. Of course, it depends on the complexity of the part and the economics involved. In general, hogged out parts made from plate or bar stock are good candidates for AM. <br /><br />I can imagine some practical military uses of AM in the field, such as making parts to repair a vehicle, a generator, or an artillery piece. Conversely, one could make parts to enhance the armour protection of a vehicle or an entire FOB. You could also make parts for a weapon or even an entire weapon. The Army recently 3D-printed a grenade launcher, including the ammo. <br /><br />Let's see how this one plays out. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-64366154245449944672017-10-01T08:52:08.562-07:002017-10-01T08:52:08.562-07:00I didn't know. That was why I asked to you. I ...I didn't know. That was why I asked to you. I think I got my answer.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-42385873831498299422017-09-30T13:51:04.656-07:002017-09-30T13:51:04.656-07:00The kind of AM process you're describing is li...The kind of AM process you're describing is like comparing a modern jet fighter to a WWI biplane. Beyond the underlying generalized concept, there's little in common. We're talking about today's (and tomorrow's!) run of the mill 3D printers. You're talking about very advanced processes completely unsuited for any combat field application.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-9554530310208073592017-09-30T13:23:15.183-07:002017-09-30T13:23:15.183-07:00While producing AM parts in the field will not be ...While producing AM parts in the field will not be practical for a long time, use of metal AM is growing because it is relatively easy to print exotic allows that are difficult to machine via traditional methods, such as many titanium alloys and high-nickel steel alloys. They material just needs to be weldable. Surface finishes are about the same as investment cast parts, and electropolishing and superfinishing can be used to bring parts within tolerances. Hot isostatic pressing AM parts ensures that they are fully dense and full strength prior to heat treatment. It is by no means a cheap process, but AM can facilitate drastic reductions in the number of parts and the use of designs and materials that are not possible via purely reductive machining. GE is investing heavily in this technology, particularly for aero engines.<br /><br />https://www.ge.com/additive/additive-manufacturing/information/metal-additive-manufacturing-materials Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-16581910994017469392017-09-30T06:49:49.073-07:002017-09-30T06:49:49.073-07:00Another aspect to 3D printing is material of const...Another aspect to 3D printing is material of construction. A 3D printer is, right now, limited to a few types of cheap plastic. That's not going to produce much in the way of milspec products! There's been some experimentation with some metal parts but I don't know how far that's come.<br /><br />The larger point is that if you expect a 3D printer to produce any imaginable part then you'd need to have bulk supplies of all kinds of materials (plastic, composites, ceramics, metals, alloys, etc.) even if the printer could work with the materials. More likely, you'd need multiple types of printers for each type of material. Multiple bulk raw materials and multiple types of printers all for the convenience of not having to bring a spare part along with you? The logistics efficiency just flew out the window!<br /><br />Further, 3D printed parts are very crude in their finishes. For some things, that's fine but for most precision parts (like a fan blade) that's totally unacceptable and non-functional. Someone would have to do surface finishing of the part. That requires machine shops. Are you really sure it isn't easier and more efficient to just bring some spare parts along?<br /><br />The more I think about the fan blade comment, the more I chuckle!<br /><br />You seem to have a vision of every soldier crouched in his foxhole beside a personal 3D printer. He sees an enemy, instantly prints a grenade, defeats the enemy, and celebrates by printing up a bottle of champagne! <br /><br />I see armies marching triumphantly into battle with nothing but a 3D printer for each soldier - they can print their rifles and tents after they get to the battle!<br /><br />I see future war movies about a heroic soldier fighting his way through to bring 3D printer medium to his pinned down buddies. Or, maybe, a movie about heroic pilots braving enemy fire to airdrop 3D printers to besieged troops. At the end of the movies, the heroes will receive medals at a ceremony with the medals printed right their as the presentation occurs! All right, that's enough. I'm just having a little fun with this.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-64706573706854131002017-09-30T06:34:20.737-07:002017-09-30T06:34:20.737-07:00"The "fan blade" comment posted ear..."The "fan blade" comment posted earlier is comical. A 3d printed ceramic or polymer composite that meets milspec for a fan blade replacement in an F35? You could singlehandedly kill GE, Rolls and Pratt with such knowledge. Please patent that now."<br /><br />That's a great answer to the 3D fan printing comment. When you get to high tech systems, the individual components are usually exotic materials and finishes with exacting specifications and characteristics. To think we'll simply print one up with a 3D printer is fantasy.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-36126274091022728602017-09-30T06:31:26.213-07:002017-09-30T06:31:26.213-07:00You tell me. What use do you think a giant, slow ...You tell me. What use do you think a giant, slow moving, non-stealty object would have in combat?ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-10171980781986370322017-09-30T04:47:20.328-07:002017-09-30T04:47:20.328-07:003-D printers are not going to kill the MIC. In ad...3-D printers are not going to kill the MIC. In addition to making the individual parts, there are other processes such as surface finishing, special coatings, and detailed assembly instructions. Just because you can 3-D print something that looks like a jet engine turbine blade, you are a long ways from having a working jet turbine. <br /><br />MM-13BAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-10699086785417647762017-09-30T04:42:55.713-07:002017-09-30T04:42:55.713-07:00What do you think about zeppelins? It looks like z...What do you think about zeppelins? It looks like zeppelins carrying hundreds of tons with much less fuel consumption than a jet is possible with modern technology. Can they have any utility at a war? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2416809/Return-zeppelin-Firm-unveils-gigantic-airship-revolutionise-goods-carried-world.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-67700514406153983462017-09-29T20:41:42.183-07:002017-09-29T20:41:42.183-07:00DARPA looking to line their coffers again? I just ...DARPA looking to line their coffers again? I just can't imagine this is more cost-efficient or timely in turn-around than an off-the-shelf UAV, at least not at the 2000 dollar price tag. 3d printing is certainly evolving, but I think this is just an exercise in justifying DARPA's need to do expensive research through excruciatingly slow university collaborations. <br /><br />The "fan blade" comment posted earlier is comical. A 3d printed ceramic or polymer composite that meets milspec for a fan blade replacement in an F35? You could singlehandedly kill GE, Rolls and Pratt with such knowledge. Please patent that now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-1623502578003667042017-09-29T18:55:41.873-07:002017-09-29T18:55:41.873-07:00"Ships have traditionally had limited manufac..."Ships have traditionally had limited manufacturing abilities on board in the form of machine shops."<br /><br />Yes, they have. Ships were once upon a time expected to perform their own repairs and a functional machine shop was a critical part of that. Today, we're moving away from on-board repairs and my understanding is that ships are being built with no or very limited machining capabilities. The LCS is the extreme example of no machining capability that I'm aware of. I don't know what the Zumwalt has, if anything.<br /><br />"For the tent stake: find a stick, sharpen it with your bayonet, and pound it in with your entrenching tool."<br /><br />Now that's some common sense, useful technology!ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-70693770094040696712017-09-29T18:08:55.001-07:002017-09-29T18:08:55.001-07:00College engineering departments are big on 3-D pri...College engineering departments are big on 3-D printing. I think it has some manufacturing potential, but it's not the future of all manufacturing that it's being promoted as. Ships have traditionally had limited manufacturing abilities on board in the form of machine shops. 3-D printers may prove useful too. Never saw marines toting lathes and mills out into the field. As stated above, taking manufacturing equipment and materials to the field and building drones is silly. For the given bulk and weight, they could take multiple assembled drones. <br /><br />For the tent stake: find a stick, sharpen it with your bayonet, and pound it in with your entrenching tool.<br /><br />MM-13BAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-47711704559496066262017-09-29T17:08:06.308-07:002017-09-29T17:08:06.308-07:00"silliness of this exercise"
Well, we a..."silliness of this exercise"<br /><br />Well, we agree on that!<br /><br />"Although limited to slowly printing plastics and basic metal forms now"<br /><br />If and when the technology advances, I'll reevaluate. <br /><br />"Even with a 50% material waste (reality is much lower), this can be offset through less storage volume for bulk materials versus the equivalent fully produced parts and packing materials. "<br /><br />No. The individual packing materials and storage volume for the circuit boards, wire, connectors, screws, radios, and other parts that can't be printed have got to far outweigh a single, packaged, complete UAV unit with all the individual components "packaged" into one unit. Go buy all the individual components you'd need plus the printer and medium and then tell me how that volume, weight, and packing material compares to a complete unit in one compact box. There's no comparison.<br /><br />"good luck getting an overnight replacement fan blade for your shiny new F-35"<br /><br />Either you have a new blade on hand because it's one of the standard spare parts based on maintenance history or you haven't got one because no one has ever seen one break before. If the later is the case, why would you have a 3D print program all ready to go when no one anticipated needing it? Be consistent in your logic. If you can anticipate to the point of having a prepared program for the printer then you can anticipate and have a spare on hand.<br /><br />Finally, we are years or decades away from being able to print parts that require exotic materials. To be fair, you allude to this when you acknowledge that we can currently only print plastics - I'm not sure that we can even print any useful metals like stainless steel, titanium, inconel, etc.<br /><br />Again, if and when the technology changes, I'll reevaluate. Until then, let's leave the riflemen in their foxholes and let's spend our development dollars on better armor and explosives. Firepower wins wars, not 3D printing. ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-63891001551854834962017-09-29T16:38:57.539-07:002017-09-29T16:38:57.539-07:00ComNavOps, while I generally agree with your premi...ComNavOps, while I generally agree with your premise of pulling away combat personnel for jobs that should remain with supply personnel (which these may have been), I think you cloud your argument by attacking 3D printing and its potential based on the simpleness/silliness of this exercise.<br /><br />Although printing toy UAVs in the field is almost useless as you say, the ability to print locally (ships in Navy/Marine case) will most likely become standard procedure for many things in 10-20 years. Although limited to slowly printing plastics and basic metal forms now, research is already progressing on complex shapes and materials. <br /> Processes have already been developed for food, strong metal alloys, as well as bone and tissue (although barely beyond theoretical, in very precise lab experiments). <br /><br />You also miss the logistics potential. Even with a 50% material waste (reality is much lower), this can be offset through less storage volume for bulk materials versus the equivalent fully produced parts and packing materials. <br /><br />Speed is currently the biggest hurdle today, but industrial printers are progressing well beyond the home/hobby models you describe. You may be able to get a fully assembled toy UAV in a day or two, but good luck getting an overnight replacement fan blade for your shiny new F-35 (and yes, several engine manufacturers are already working towards this goal). <br /><br />So yes, your premise about the usefulness of this particular exercise is silly, but the potential of this capability to the military clearly is not.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-63796972829889199212017-09-29T15:25:51.152-07:002017-09-29T15:25:51.152-07:00There's another much more important thing - BI...There's another much more important thing - BIG military industrial complex won't never allow such "improvisations" in the military service itself. <br /><br /> What i mean is, if 3D printing some military useful systems can be done by the military itself in the not so distant future .. then some companies will loose they're profits, they're never allow it to happen. <br /><br /><br /><br /> Storm Shadowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10999164214935172607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-87416545584992111312017-09-29T10:35:02.676-07:002017-09-29T10:35:02.676-07:00ComNavOps completely missed the point of the Marin...ComNavOps completely missed the point of the Marines exercise. AM is very important when the Marines invade<br />Mars, lots of local materials, very long delivery times of parts via LSTm from Earth.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-2130155478119605722017-09-29T09:48:34.913-07:002017-09-29T09:48:34.913-07:00"The price for the quadcpoters probably mainl..."The price for the quadcpoters probably mainly comes from the parts you can't print, like batteries, control & radio circuits, cameras, etc."<br /><br />Price aside, don't you see the gross inefficiency of having to not only bring along a printer and print medium but also separate boxes of batteries, circuit boards, wire, cameras, etc., and then pull combat soldiers off the line to unpack each of these components, print the parts you didn't bring, hand wire and assemble them, test them, and transport them to wherever they're needed - as opposed to just bringing actual UAVs with you in whatever quantity you think you'll need plus some extras?ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-14219584363600278182017-09-29T09:42:49.257-07:002017-09-29T09:42:49.257-07:00I don't think you appreciate how long it takes...I don't think you appreciate how long it takes to print something! Sure, if you only need one fuel can and can wait several hours for it, and were too stupid to bring enough with you, and want to pull several riflemen off the line to make it then, yes, it's a great idea.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-81870921333518351992017-09-29T09:23:07.220-07:002017-09-29T09:23:07.220-07:00The potential with the 3d printing is that 20 lbs ...The potential with the 3d printing is that 20 lbs of material can be used to make quadcopters sure, but if you don't need them you can print spare mags, some weapon parts, fuel cans, tent poles, etc. The price for the quadcpoters probably mainly comes from the parts you can't print, like batteries, control & radio circuits, cameras, etc. The main thing is if your unit needs something now, you don't have to hope they haven't run out and you have to wait for it to be shipped from the US. Also remember this technology is still in its infancy, we're still exploring what it can and can't do, what it is better than other alternatives, and where its worse.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-77760514229322826752017-09-29T07:20:10.325-07:002017-09-29T07:20:10.325-07:00"This is amazingly incorrect. No matter how w..."This is amazingly incorrect. No matter how well trained in "stealthy recon" a person is, they can't see through a door, nor through the walls of an office building that needs clearing."<br /><br />This is amazingly incorrect. No UAV can see through a door or walls. No UAV can open a door. On the other hand, a person has a variety of methods for "seeing" through a door ranging from IR to audio to cameras under the door to simply looking through windows.<br /><br />You also seem to think I'm arguing against unmanned sensors. Where did you get that impression? Certainly not from this post. I'm all in favor of unmanned sensors, of whatever type. If you read the post, you'll see that I'm against 3D printing of UAVs - not UAVs themselves. <br /><br />If you think you might need 10,000 UAVs then procure them before the operation. Entering an operation without the requisite equipment is just poor planning and if you think you can suddenly crank out 10,000 units then you're living in a fantasy world.<br /><br />Thanks for the note on lethality and UAVs. I had no idea a UAV could be lethal. That's incredible! I read military articles all day but I've never heard of such a concept. Thanks for making me aware of it.<br /><br />I don't think you read the post at all. If you did, you certainly did not comprehend it!ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.com