tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post391431656018120581..comments2024-03-28T07:56:09.239-07:00Comments on Navy Matters: LCS - What Would You Do With It?ComNavOpshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-50823955463807482012014-04-16T23:08:33.652-07:002014-04-16T23:08:33.652-07:00"6. My original thought was to adapt the F-35..."6. My original thought was to adapt the F-35's EODAS to naval use. Turns out Northrup Grumman was thinking the same thing. This will allow for 360, 24/7 Situational Awareness and quicker targeting."<br /><br />Easier solution is to use CEA's Phased array radar that has been fitted to the Aussie Anzac class frigates, Already tested and quite successfully. Bonus is that the system can be upgraded through programming rather then costly and time consuming hard ware changes. No need to park in port when a computer update does the job.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-32918553659439185242013-06-08T22:48:52.912-07:002013-06-08T22:48:52.912-07:00Take a look at the naval strike missile. Is quad ...Take a look at the naval strike missile. Is quad launched and is currently being used the the Norwegians on several of their boats. The skjold class is my personal favorite. Looks like a very easy system to maintain as well for those of us who actually have to maintain and shoot these systems. concernshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09040729398557347980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-29252193442757192722012-11-21T06:37:10.300-08:002012-11-21T06:37:10.300-08:00Ideally, the task force would pick up the swarm fa...Ideally, the task force would pick up the swarm far out. Then all the unmanned vehicles can be deployed. But even if only a couple of USVs and UAVs are launched, that increases the effectiveness of the LCS. And the LCS could back them up with its weapons.<br /><br />If the inclined ramp is installed, the LCS could continue to release USVs whenever it had a chance during the engagement. Not at top speed, of course, but with training and experimenting, I think a large number of USVs could be dispensed.WireguidedMarinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16444356806279366997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-72526650293131420932012-11-21T06:20:00.194-08:002012-11-21T06:20:00.194-08:00During First Gulf War demining ops we used the MIL...During First Gulf War demining ops we used the MILAN ATK missile and launchers to protect our ships from speedboat attacks..simple,cheap, effective...perfect.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-79622422068860918442012-11-21T06:15:02.243-08:002012-11-21T06:15:02.243-08:00Got it! Ok for targeting. The french are testing s...Got it! Ok for targeting. The french are testing something similar on their prototype patrol vessel "Adroit". They use a siebel copter. But if one uses this it will mean that a rotation system will have to be put in place to have permanent observation since swarm tactics are based on rapid movements..Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-2475599339646639552012-11-20T15:11:12.063-08:002012-11-20T15:11:12.063-08:00UAVs would only be needed for targeting of long-ra...UAVs would only be needed for targeting of long-range badguys. Look at my UpGun plan above (specifically the 30mm RWS)SpudmanWPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13808856347047254385noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-64760058712410180622012-11-20T13:07:06.755-08:002012-11-20T13:07:06.755-08:00The reasoning of using UAV's is totally imposs...The reasoning of using UAV's is totally impossible to archieve in reaction to a swarm attack. It would need a command system of such flexibility that it is simply unafordable. It's the ship that will perform the battle!<br />What is the problem about demining modules? European navies use this for more than 20 years.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-71972177385288444062012-11-20T12:53:33.527-08:002012-11-20T12:53:33.527-08:00Taking into account the weakness and advantage of ...Taking into account the weakness and advantage of the type I would suggest to create what I would call "interdiction squadrons". These sq. would group 5-6 LCS's and a command and support ship, a small LHA like the french Mistral class and a light tanker-supply ship. This force could conduct several missions like initial deployment group to certain volatile regions of choice. These groups could also conduct litoral recon blocking,mining and demining operations. Drugwar related operations in the Carib would also be one of their missions where they could relieve baatleforce assets.I would replace the 57mm with a 76mm turret, ad a Penguin type short range anti-ship missile and some 20mm mountings. Depending misssion I would also include the possibility to use the missionbay as a fuel area, just like battle tanks use additional fueltanks to reach a battle area without using main fuel storage capacity.So, in short create rapid deployment squadrons who could act as an "holding force' independently or with some support. So you get the most out of it... very raw at the moment, needs finetuning, any idea"s? btw in Royal Navy Frigate Commanders expect to be sacrified to save the carriers, they know this, it's part of the frigate job.... Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-83955417479468477852012-11-20T05:09:19.666-08:002012-11-20T05:09:19.666-08:00You may be overestimating the amount of time you h...You may be overestimating the amount of time you have to deal with a swarm. Have you worked through the timeline of a swarm threat approaching at 45kts? Unless the threat is recognized and engaged many, many miles out the timeline is very compressed. There won't be time to find particular boats. Imagine an ambush scenario and work through the distance/time. I think you'll be surprised.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-52734716983565134132012-11-20T05:03:38.777-08:002012-11-20T05:03:38.777-08:00Wow! The general public in Mobile needs to get ou...Wow! The general public in Mobile needs to get out and see the world. Thanks for stopping by, though!<br /><br />You may be underestimating how spread out a battle group gets when in combat. To act as outer pickets, as I think you're suggesting, they'd have to be placed a hundred miles or more from the group. Remember, planes/missiles target and attack from hundreds of miles. The LCS would also need a long range, area defense anti-air missile which it doesn't have (it only has the short range, point defense RAM). Also, the LCS hasn't got the endurance to operate that far from support. It would need to constantly come back to the group to refuel/reprovision. The ship was not designed for this type of operation.<br /><br />There's a reason why people outside Mobile criticize this ship!<br /><br />Your idea for using the LCS as a humanitarian/mini-medical ship has merit. In the third-world, ambassador role it could show the flag and act as a floating clinic/dental platform. Good thought!ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-80943246970172805792012-11-20T04:51:10.807-08:002012-11-20T04:51:10.807-08:00SpudmanWP,
I know you're optimistic but those...SpudmanWP,<br /><br />I know you're optimistic but those module timelines are far more wishful thinking on the part of the Navy than they are realistic. When was the last time the Navy met a developmental timeline? Also, those are the barest bones versions of modules. It will be several years or more before any modules become available that even remotely justify the promise of the LCS. For instance, the SUW module won't even begin to look for a Griffon replacement for another year or two and it will take a few years after that to field something. Without an effective missile, the SUW module is not an effective module. Those timelines and minimal version modules exist only to allow the Navy to claim in public relations that the LCS is a success.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-59053299542245802152012-11-20T04:41:44.919-08:002012-11-20T04:41:44.919-08:00Remember that the LCS has no area anti-air capabil...Remember that the LCS has no area anti-air capability, meaning no Standard missiles, so it can't perform an AAW/picket/missile trap role. The only AAW capability is the short range RAM. Combined with the lack of ASW, picket duty would be largely pointless.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-90410697475044165552012-11-19T19:52:10.930-08:002012-11-19T19:52:10.930-08:00Just kill the LSC program and go with either a Eur...Just kill the LSC program and go with either a European designed Multi-role frigate with Littoral capability. The other option would be to take the US Coast Guard's National Security Cutter design and make modifications to turn it into a Patrol frigate with Standard Frigate weapons and systems.<br /><br />For the NSC Frigate, I would upgrade the hull to Naval frigate Standard and call it Block 1. Upgrade the Radar and systems including adding ASEA radar or a lighter version of Aegis Radar system or the Active Phased Array Radar that is on the Sachsen class frigate. Install 8 RIM-162 ESSM in a quad pack Mk-41 VLS. Add Spike NLOS and a Quad pack hellfire missiles. Standard 8 Quad pack harpoons in the stern. Add TB-29 Towed array sonar and standard MK-48 ADCAP torpedoes. I would add SEA RAM and include Typhoon Weapon Station with Mk 38 Mod 2 for small boat defense. At the same time, I would keep the NSC's Sea legs so that the NSC frigate has the Sea Legs to keep up with an Amphibious assault group or a Surface Action Group. I would at the same time upgrade the 57mm main deck gun with 5"/54 caliber Mark 45 gun for surface warships, anti-aircraft and shore bombardment to support amphibious operationsNickyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15318590507921043958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-38092562142800151782012-11-19T15:24:26.552-08:002012-11-19T15:24:26.552-08:00As it stands, the USV could carry the .50 cal or 4...As it stands, the USV could carry the .50 cal or 40mm. If the .50 can't work, we can use the 40mm until the newer USV is built. Bear in mind the .50 cal is not being used in the defense but on the offense. If the USV has to get a little closer to engage it won’t be a deal-breaker. <br /><br />As to the number of USV and UAV, the maximum that can be carried after adjusting the vehicle deck for the extra crew berthing space. <br /><br />Releasing each of the USVs right now might be the biggest problem; I’m not sure how long it would take for each one. The process needs to be sped up, and without a human crew the safety concern of the small boat should be a lot less. I see something like what the USCG has on their new NSC cutters: an inclined ramp to slide them off and then winch them back on. It would make the initial deployment before engagement very quick and could be done while the ship is underway; don’t know what the top speed of that would be. <br /> <br />Coincidently the USCG’s Long Range Interceptor RHIBs are 11 meters long – the same length as the improved USV. Makes picturing employment a lot more real.<br /><br />The swarm's strength is in mass. If you can break it up into smaller groups and/or disrupt their organization, you win a victory right there. Iranian tactics will have some boats using SA-7 missiles for rudimentary air defense. The USVs can find and attack those boats first so the UAVs have less interference. Collating the ship’s radar with the USV and UAV GPS coordinates and EO/IR imagery will be a challenge, but the payoff will be a good picture of the swarm size and composition. <br /><br />And if the swarm attack occurs at night or in bad weather then the advantage goes to the LCS with the radar, C3I, and EO/IR equipped unmanned vehicles in a big way. Right now, I believe the Iranians think a mass attack in the Persian Gulf at night or in adverse weather gives them an advantage. This “anti-swarm” of USVs and UAVs backed up with larger guns and missiles on a manned platform could turn that around.<br /><br />A side benefit from this idea is that while in the AOR ships attached to Fifth Fleet could practice meaningful OpFor using . . . Protector USVs equipped with MILES. The ships would get practice at dealing with boghammars but so would the unmanned operators.<br />WireguidedMarinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16444356806279366997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-15436133448199934032012-11-19T14:57:30.723-08:002012-11-19T14:57:30.723-08:00Thanks for the link SpudmanWP.
Thanks for the link SpudmanWP.<br /><br />WiseApenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-31032092601759596302012-11-19T14:06:50.509-08:002012-11-19T14:06:50.509-08:00the general public in Mobile lionizes them as amaz...the general public in Mobile lionizes them as amazing vessels (we don't see many true combat vessels here.) Why not put them on the outer edge of the battle group as TrT mentioned. Have two ships on each side, one being a freedom class, which has a larger Ram launcher, and on either side of the ship in the mission package platforms put either another AA missile launcher or low-caliber guns for an AA role. Behind her, an Independence carrying anti-ship missiles and a larger gun. Both would act an early warning vessel, and when in conjunction one could handle small air-based threats while the other targets near-by enemy vessels. In the event one goes down they should have had enough time to call in support from the battle group, allowing them to take over the fighting while they lcs acts as rescue for any distressed vessel. The reason for equipping the Independence with the anti-ship weapons is because, as mentioned before, Freedom cant support a much larger forward gun. <br /><br />Simpler idea; both ships have that a spacious mission bay right? convert portions of it into medical facilities. The helicopter pad would allow for rapid transportation of personnel and equipment, the ship's speed would allow it to travel much faster than other relief vessels, Austal claims trimarans are a very stable platform as far as the tilting of the ship, and the basic issue weapons could allow it to enter more hostile environments than other ships requiring escorts. Stuckey421https://www.blogger.com/profile/04732837452777954182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-27745579337025352192012-11-19T13:49:55.658-08:002012-11-19T13:49:55.658-08:00Could call it a "missile trap"?
My unde...Could call it a "missile trap"?<br /><br />My understanding is the USNs primary strategy for dealing with the Backfire threat was to convince said backfires that a carrier was in a certain area, and put a Cruiser there instead.<br /><br />We (the UK) quite openly sent Destroyers out to act like carriers and take hits for the carriers during the falklands war.TrThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07316335177828136131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-72515272169882270462012-11-19T12:22:13.997-08:002012-11-19T12:22:13.997-08:00Just to keep everybody on the same page, here is t...Just to keep everybody on the same page, here is the <a href="http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RL33741.pdf" rel="nofollow">latest GAO report</a> (Aug 2012).SpudmanWPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13808856347047254385noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-50392807501598622232012-11-19T12:13:18.845-08:002012-11-19T12:13:18.845-08:00hehe.. "threats" :)
Although the gunner...hehe.. "threats" :)<br /><br />Although the gunners may call them treats.SpudmanWPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13808856347047254385noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-32984666274287028772012-11-19T12:11:27.570-08:002012-11-19T12:11:27.570-08:00Check the latest Program Doc (June 2012) as it see...Check the <a href="http://www.ndia.org/Divisions/Divisions/International/Documents/LCS%20PEO%20Overview%20NIID%2020120607%20FINAL.pdf" rel="nofollow">latest Program Doc (June 2012)</a> as it seems to be ok (although it could always be better) ;)<br /><br />To summarize DT/OT complete timelines (ready for tasking)<br />SUW (Surface Warfare) Late FY2013<br />MCM (Mine Counter Measures) Late FY2014<br />ASW (Anti Submarine Warfare) Mid FY2016<br /><br />This tracks for the most part (in order of severity) what the treats are out there. Biggest threat is surface vessels, then mines, then subs.SpudmanWPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13808856347047254385noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-60854439715574408182012-11-19T11:28:31.788-08:002012-11-19T11:28:31.788-08:00"Picket duty." - you mean like sacrifici..."Picket duty." - you mean like sacrificial goats? Wouldn't put that on the recruitment posters!<br /><br />If there's no budget for SpudmanWP's impressive sounding make over then I'd cancel all the high tech gear except for RAM, in case someone thinks you're worth shooting at; keep the guns for frightening pirates, drug runners and human traffickers (the corporate name for slavers). Areas of ops would be Caribbean and African coasts. <br /><br />Still can't get over how much these things cost. Have you considered exporting them to the Chinese?WiseApenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-36262584677829486162012-11-19T10:59:51.956-08:002012-11-19T10:59:51.956-08:00I was looking at some program docs this weekend an...I was looking at some program docs this weekend and they are working on a Griffin-ER (22km). I still see it as inferior as it is GPS/SAL only (no over the horizon / LOS only). That and I think they are trying to keep it all US.<br /><br />Here are a few docs on Griffin (<a href="http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2012armaments/Tuesday14016tackett.pdf" rel="nofollow">Surface </a>and <a href="http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2012armaments/Tuesday14014tackett.pdf" rel="nofollow">Air launched</a>) & a <a href="http://www.ndia.org/Divisions/Divisions/International/Documents/LCS%20PEO%20Overview%20NIID%2020120607%20FINAL.pdf" rel="nofollow">Summer 2012 LCS update</a>.SpudmanWPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13808856347047254385noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-84799877797061165542012-11-19T10:49:50.758-08:002012-11-19T10:49:50.758-08:00Picket duty.
Stick them on the outer edges of the...Picket duty.<br /><br />Stick them on the outer edges of the battle group on the premise that they arent worth revealing a submarine to hit, and they are sacrificial compared to cruisers and carriers.TrThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07316335177828136131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-37754438749472272142012-11-19T10:34:11.145-08:002012-11-19T10:34:11.145-08:00Fair enough. I have no facts to disagree further ...Fair enough. I have no facts to disagree further on the Spike NLOS. If it's that near to being a ready to deploy system, I genuinely wonder why the Navy went for the utterly useless Griffon as the NLOS replacement? Do you know if the Navy looked at the Spike NLOS?ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-826589028253990802012-11-19T10:03:43.659-08:002012-11-19T10:03:43.659-08:00Yeah, I do tend to be optimistic but when I look a...Yeah, I do tend to be optimistic but when I look at what we have done in the past (Aegis, CVN, Seawolf, Virginia, F-22, F-35, B-2, etc), I don't see modules as being a major hurdle.<br /><br />That being said, they should have had the modules at least working in the lab before building the ship. However, that ship has sailed (pardon the pun).SpudmanWPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13808856347047254385noreply@blogger.com