tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post3868865780540577933..comments2024-03-28T04:22:28.228-07:00Comments on Navy Matters: Norwegian Frigate Sinking LessonsComNavOpshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-19595501616374237452018-12-10T21:32:55.376-08:002018-12-10T21:32:55.376-08:00In that Scandinavians, the Baltics and europe over...In that Scandinavians, the Baltics and europe overall have no unity and are at times working to cross purposes, and have no common goal. <br /><br />But if you had allied nations that were willing to put the work in, it could be done - I'm reminded of the Cold War RN and cold war-present JMSDF, which were ASW navies that could operate in concert with the USN.WIld Goosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16911145032644199127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-63823973190866507512018-12-10T21:31:20.900-08:002018-12-10T21:31:20.900-08:00Conceptually, the only way to justify the Nansens ...Conceptually, the only way to justify the Nansens is if the Scandinavian and Baltic navies were going ot be operating together in wartime, with Norway's Nansens providing the AAW FFG component and other navies providing other components for the fleet mix, ala the wargame Naval War Arctic Cirlce.<br /><br />This is, needless to say, not a likely or realistic proposition. :VWIld Goosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16911145032644199127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-7627690455795437322018-12-05T16:42:47.156-08:002018-12-05T16:42:47.156-08:00This is an old issue. CNO Greenert commented on i...This is an old issue. CNO Greenert commented on it a few years ago and acknowledged that the US Navy had dropped the requirement for electromagnetic emissions control (EMCON) from equipment. Specifically, he pointed out that the series of electric motors that makes up the catapult are each massive powerful and emit enormous electromagnetic waves with no way to shield them.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-74956864061808622142018-12-05T15:40:02.803-08:002018-12-05T15:40:02.803-08:00"electromagnetic catapults that act as giant ..."electromagnetic catapults that act as giant locating beacons for the enemy"<br /><br />I've never heard anything about that. Could you expand upon it?Deptfordxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12075948711015675524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-33378182042422088062018-12-05T12:09:01.128-08:002018-12-05T12:09:01.128-08:00Sorry, that's just gibberish to me. I have no...Sorry, that's just gibberish to me. I have no idea what it means, how the test was conducted, or what the result was. I'll say it again, I'm certain that an entire compartment wasn't filled with water to test the watertight integrity, as claimed in the earlier comment.<br /><br />We need to see a good translation of the entire document.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-64683603109735945642018-12-05T11:27:23.289-08:002018-12-05T11:27:23.289-08:00Using google translate, the important bit is
&quo...Using google translate, the important bit is<br /><br />"He remembers them well because they consisted of the flooding, with thousands of liters of water, of the reduction gear chamber , one of the parts that make up the ship's engine room."<br /><br />Well, the reduction gear chamber is "part" of the engine room, certainly not a compartment,<br />As for water volume, well, my living room is approximately 6*3*2.5<br />45cubic metres, or 45,000 litres.<br />"thousands and thousands" isnt a lot of waterDomohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00240964731398145995noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-31917015116212124652018-12-05T05:16:26.956-08:002018-12-05T05:16:26.956-08:00"The only public source I can find about the ..."The only public source I can find about the watertighness test is here"<br /><br />Any Spanish speaking readers out there who can translate and summarize? I've never heard of testing a compartment by flooding it in an actual ship. I don't believe that's what happened.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-55918143205946800492018-12-05T05:14:46.536-08:002018-12-05T05:14:46.536-08:00"The report gathers crew's declarations a..."The report gathers crew's declarations about water flooding through stuffing boxes and the propeller shaft. It's your conclusion there's a dessign flaw, not theirs."<br /><br />You say you accept the report's findings that water passed through prop shafts and stuffing boxes and yet you deny that's a design flaw. That must mean you believe that water was intended to pass through. It's either a design flaw or was an intended design feature. Which is it?<br /><br />There's just no way around it. Water being able to pass from compartment to compartment is not how watertight ships are supposed to function.<br /><br />You clearly don't want to accept any criticism of Spain/Navantia and are willing to deny reality to do so.<br /><br />Oh well ...ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-34607964193960479062018-12-05T02:43:37.148-08:002018-12-05T02:43:37.148-08:00@Anon
The most interesting part would be when that...@Anon<br />The most interesting part would be when that test happened.<br />Before or after fitout<br /><br />Its no use testing for flood containment and then cutting additional holes in the ship.<br /><br />You are also using a slightly more legalistic definition of "design"<br /><br />ComNavOps isn't assigning legal culpability, merely stating that a ship that sinks so quickly after so little damage is ineffective.<br /><br />It's very easy to believe after the flood test, someone cut a hole in that bulkhead to run an ethernet cable, and either didn't seal the hole, or sealed it with a rain gland or a bit of silicone or foam, rather than a proper pressure gland.<br /><br />Repeat that a few hundred times and you're in real trouble.Domohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00240964731398145995noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-76724306345859849042018-12-05T00:06:17.071-08:002018-12-05T00:06:17.071-08:00My last post here. Sorry, but I don't need to ...My last post here. Sorry, but I don't need to speak in public. <br /><br />Just point that your logic is flawed, and your post is rigged:<br /><br />"Flooding passed through and into two supposedly watertight compartments due to design flaws. This is not my conclusion, this is a direct quote from the report." <br /><br />Indeed, it is your conclusion. The report gathers crew's declarations about water flooding through stuffing boxes and the propeller shaft. It's your conclusion there's a dessign flaw, not theirs.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-22061414183031881522018-12-04T23:35:16.402-08:002018-12-04T23:35:16.402-08:00[Sorry about the typos: *agroud->aground, *new-...[Sorry about the typos: *agroud->aground, *new->knew. I'm not used to write in english, and don't know how to edit the post, if possible.] Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-23394966017913233252018-12-04T23:20:56.204-08:002018-12-04T23:20:56.204-08:00Yes, I read the report. I read the safety alert (A...Yes, I read the report. I read the safety alert (Appendix A) too. I know what the norwegian sailors said. I put so much trust in their word, but I'm willing to accept they are right. But we are talking about a collision. Bulkheads bend. Machinery moves. The claim about a design error is too serious and it can't be made so lightly.<br />I saw the video with the "rescue" operation. Initialy, the ship was agroud but floating. Then the tugs started tilting and pushing the poor frigate against the rocks, and I new she was doomed...<br /><br />The AIBN report is, like we say in Spain, "encender el ventilador" ("starting the fan": the tale is about putting your s**t in a fan and then... you know).<br /><br />The only public source I can find about the watertighness test is here: https://www.lavozdegalicia.es/noticia/ferrol/ferrol/2018/11/30/navantia-inundo-parte-dos-fragatas-noruegas-probar-estancas/00031543600425817182639.htm (Sorry, only in spanish). I though there was three ships tested, and several compartments. The newspaper talks only about one compartment tested by flooding in two frigates... maybe my memory is failing me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-3893065370450571222018-12-04T19:34:11.044-08:002018-12-04T19:34:11.044-08:00From reading through a good number of topics here....From reading through a good number of topics here. I think most of the top brass know, we would be unable to fight a near peer. I believe they are afraid we just might lose and act accordingly. Sort of like the bully who meets his match. <br /><br />As sort of an aside, when they count vessels, do they count the USS Pueblo in their numbers ? It is still on the registry as a commissioned ship. It is still in possession of North Korea, and used as a museum of sorts. Harryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11308367938262790306noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-16879460825485959032018-12-04T17:32:54.192-08:002018-12-04T17:32:54.192-08:00IMHO A consequence of our current "Data is Go...IMHO A consequence of our current "Data is Good" mindset, married to our extreme risk aversion culture will be an extreme susceptibility to decoys.<br /><br />We will spot the decoys (barring an EMP/hacker/magic bullet/ Pearl Harbor event wiping out our eyes.) No matter how obvious and patchetic the decoys are, top brass will insist on engaging 'just to be sure'. Not to mention the PowerPoint slides "Destroyed XX suspected SCUD launchers". We risk expending alot of guided ordinance on plywood and sheet metal.Kirbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08160163509930734619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-51798079037420605082018-12-04T17:08:47.392-08:002018-12-04T17:08:47.392-08:00I'll repeat much of my earlier comment since y...I'll repeat much of my earlier comment since you seem to have ignored it. We did nothing when Russia annexed Crimea. We've done nothing about Russia's proxy invasion of Ukraine. We did nothing to even slightly hinder China's annexation of the entire South China Sea. We've done nothing to prevent Chinese incursions into sovereign Philippine territory. <br /><br />All that and you're 100% confident that we'll jump to Norway's defense? I'm not. I'm not saying we wouldn't, just that it's not a sure thing.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-54178938501942805512018-12-04T15:10:46.480-08:002018-12-04T15:10:46.480-08:00How much armor do we have to preposition in Norweg...How much armor do we have to preposition in Norwegian caves to not make you question whether we would come to Norways aid? This is to<br />ComNavOps. We would come to the fight with a hard-on. Peter Gnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-42327412686473944852018-12-04T13:48:34.502-08:002018-12-04T13:48:34.502-08:00"True. But, if AAW is a primary role of the n..."True. But, if AAW is a primary role of the navy, they would need something like the Nansen-class."<br />If AAW was the key role, they would need something with much bigger missiles than this has, which are short range, far from area defence bubbles.<br />But if it was, why?<br /><br />The US has AAW Destroyers, to defend the rest of the fleet, these appear to exist to defend themselves.<br />More skjolds and F16s would seem a far more useful mix, maybe even a few patriot batteriesDomohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00240964731398145995noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-9095479770008996082018-12-04T12:09:33.558-08:002018-12-04T12:09:33.558-08:00We're here laughing at Norway, but they've...We're here laughing at Norway, but they've just launched the first AEGIS Submarine./s Atlantic Turtlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00901578115166543472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-70460801488296122102018-12-04T08:30:36.328-08:002018-12-04T08:30:36.328-08:00You didn't have to search for it. This link w...You didn't have to search for it. This link was cited in the post and provided at the bottom of the post as footnote (1).ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-71890217191063311062018-12-04T07:18:40.045-08:002018-12-04T07:18:40.045-08:00I just found the AIBN website and started reading ...I just found the AIBN website and started reading the report. For those interested in reading it without the newspapers summary: <br /><br />https://www.aibn.no/Marine/Investigations/18-968NICOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14567491909555759918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-22552266160416948722018-12-04T05:57:25.987-08:002018-12-04T05:57:25.987-08:00Seriously, did you read the post? Here's the ...Seriously, did you read the post? Here's the relevant quote from the post AND FROM THE AIBN report:<br /><br />"Next, the crew found that water from the aft generator room was running into the gear room via the hollow propeller shafts and that the gear room was filling up fast. From the gear room, the water then ran into and was flooding the aft and fore engine rooms via the stuffing boxes in the bulkheads. This meant that the flooding became substantially more extensive than indicated by the original damage."<br /><br />Flooding passed through and into two supposedly watertight compartments due to design flaws. This is not my conclusion, this is a direct quote from the report. If you believe AIBN has it wrong then take it up with them.<br /><br />"The watertighness of the first three norwegian frigates was tested by the builder actually flooding the compartments, with norwegian officials presence."<br /><br />I flat out don't believe that. I've never heard of that being done on any ship. Give me a reference.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-20142192704595428802018-12-04T05:35:15.946-08:002018-12-04T05:35:15.946-08:00I'm shocked. You are assuming some preliminary...I'm shocked. You are assuming some preliminary and unchecked speculation from that AIBN is the established truth.<br /><br />"The initial damage and immediate flooding was not enough to sink the ship but the flawed design allowed adjoining, undamaged compartments to quickly flood resulting in the ship rapidly sinking."<br /><br />That's your conclusion. The report states that three compartments were flooded and "some uncertainty as to whether the (...) aftmost compartment was also filling with water". Four flooded compartments exceed the flotability requirements, and are enought to sink the frigate.<br /><br />The watertighness of the first three norwegian frigates was tested by the builder actually flooding the compartments, with norwegian officials presence. That test was deemed unnecessary for the last two.<br /><br />An internal report from the Spanish Armada estimates four compartments were damaged in the initial collision. As I said, that exceeds flooding survival requirements. Aditional damage may have been caused by running the ship aground. Of course, this can't be substantiated until ship's inspection.<br /><br />At this time, I can't point to any public sources, but I reckon you dropped your usually stringent requeriments about solid information sources in this case by accepting as truth a very preliminary speculation based on compromised sailors interviews. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-72683719404868252892018-12-03T13:28:43.260-08:002018-12-03T13:28:43.260-08:00" if AAW is a primary role of the navy, they ..." if AAW is a primary role of the navy, they would need something like the Nansen-class."<br /><br />Absolutely not and especially not in coastal waters. A small, cheap, expendable ASW corvette is what's needed. A dipping sonar of some type is the basic sensor. ASW helos, if desired, can be provided from land bases in a coastal defense setting.<br /><br />Small SSKs are also a great choice for coastal defence. Four or five frigates are about the least useful type of vessel.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-37012754218735745292018-12-03T13:24:25.628-08:002018-12-03T13:24:25.628-08:00" lack of ASW and Mine warfare does not look ..." lack of ASW and Mine warfare does not look so bad if you assume depending on the war NATO or Japan are all in. If not that's a problem."<br /><br />Another absolutely great comment/issue. Would the US come to the aid of Norway if a conflict developed with Russia? We stood by and watched Russia annex Crimea and launch a proxy invasion of Ukraine. Is Norway absolutely certain the US won't just watch especially if Russia were to replicate its Ukraine tactics - supporting a Norwegian rebel faction that ostensibly wants to join Russia, thus making it an 'internal' issue for Norway?<br /><br />The US has just finished ceding the entire E/S China Seas to China. I'm far from certain that the US would intervene in a Russian/Norwegian 'dispute'. <br /><br />If the US opted not to intervene, where would that leave the Norwegian navy? I bet they'd want ASW and mine vessels far more than four or five frigates that wouldn't last a day in combat.<br /><br />Norway is taking a big gamble with its national security if it's planning on the US helping.<br />ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-66016668373539983742018-12-03T12:35:11.014-08:002018-12-03T12:35:11.014-08:00Completely agree on all the technical issues cited...Completely agree on all the technical issues cited by CNO so won't rehash.<br /><br />Far more interested is hearing about the human side. How well prepared was the crew? Who made the first call ship was ok and then the second call that the ship was sinking? Could it have been repaired and why not? How much practice did they get in damage assessment/repairs and was it enough? If the crew was "lackadaisical" with handling the ship, were they properly prepared to deal with this emergency?<br /><br />Hopefully a comprehensive report in English will get published with more info...<br />NICOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14567491909555759918noreply@blogger.com