tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post2626402387738066484..comments2024-03-28T07:56:09.239-07:00Comments on Navy Matters: LCS Anti-Ship MissileComNavOpshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-75799958303855714752016-05-26T07:25:15.004-07:002016-05-26T07:25:15.004-07:00Ben, buddy, how on earth do you see a Triton, P-8,...Ben, buddy, how on earth do you see a Triton, P-8, Rivet, E-2/3 as survivable??? They're all large, slow, non-stealthy platforms. That's what is known as a target drone. You've fallen off the rails. If you're a Chinese commander and you see a P-8 or any of the assets you mentioned coming from many hundreds of miles away, are you going to allow them to do their job or are you going to have them casually swatted out of the sky? Turn it around - would we allow large, slow, non-stealthy Chinese aircraft to monitor our operations? Of course not. We'd assign the nearest asset and they'd be shortly removed from the Chinese order of battle.<br /><br />I've already pointed out that subs can be targeting assets but their field of sensing is limited, they don't like to broadcast, and they have higher priority missions.<br /><br />A U2 would be fine but is not a real time targeting asset. It's a delayed intel platform that operates at the strategic level.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-81140778462375364242016-05-26T07:11:42.243-07:002016-05-26T07:11:42.243-07:00Triton. P8. Rivet joint. Virginia. E2. E3. CAP. U2...Triton. P8. Rivet joint. Virginia. E2. E3. CAP. U2. Oh and The usual inteligence assets.<br /><br />I think the point also is that many unarmed assets my also provide data. And some that dont survive the enguagement.<br /><br />It means that an attack on a single asset by apparently overwhelming force. Cannot be garenteed if you cant clear all usn assests from a 500 nm radiusAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12729830680739249692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-63814304690666049712016-05-26T01:33:02.931-07:002016-05-26T01:33:02.931-07:00For actual military operation use, MALD-V/MASSM se...For actual military operation use, MALD-V/MASSM seem like the ideal solutions for OTH targeting. <br /><br />The other option depends on how much you trust the IIR and targeting suite of missiles like NSM/LRASM. If it is trusted, you can fire the missile and if/when if find no valid targets, it can just destruct in air.atshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11410880091736531848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-34963841615546704832016-05-25T14:13:08.565-07:002016-05-25T14:13:08.565-07:00What sensor do you think will see targets hundreds...What sensor do you think will see targets hundreds of miles into enemy territory for the LCS and survive to tell about it?ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-47821474449715057132016-05-25T13:54:07.756-07:002016-05-25T13:54:07.756-07:00I know what your saying.
But a distributed letha...I know what your saying. <br /><br />But a distributed lethality tactic doest work without distributed targeting. With OTH weapons its ( as you say ) unlikly we will authorise a blind launch.<br /><br />Relying on organic targeting asset in a contested ecm environment is foolhardy. ( this is your argument )<br /><br />Allowing distributed targeting for assets able to target and able to network. <br /><br />And then allowing strike from any asset capable and unjammed is a good idea.<br /><br />It simply increases the probability of a firing solution in a highly contested em environment.<br /><br />LRSM has a 500 mile range. Thats a 1000 mile cirle you would have to jam. That just isnt possible continuously and globally.<br /><br />Its an option. Standard organic targeting and strike will still be available and prefered i have no doubt.<br /><br />Without this, distributed lethality is a child like concept. And NSM on LSC little more than a poor joke.<br /><br />Having said that. The techical challenges and practicalities... very suspect i agree.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12729830680739249692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-54011295426101941292016-05-25T11:12:59.460-07:002016-05-25T11:12:59.460-07:00Are system shortcomings thought out during or afte...Are system shortcomings thought out during or after procurement?<br /><br />Also what's the loss to the shop for this refit of capabilityHowdypartnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14995152060704851499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-44843530510186776002016-05-25T09:56:00.471-07:002016-05-25T09:56:00.471-07:00Yes, absolutely! This fact tends to get overlooke...Yes, absolutely! This fact tends to get overlooked as we discuss our weapons. The enemy faces the same problems we do. <br /><br />A timely reminder!ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-37395137687392627162016-05-25T08:19:46.878-07:002016-05-25T08:19:46.878-07:00Chinese, russian, etc., don't face the same ta...Chinese, russian, etc., don't face the same targeting problem?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01979032935712660177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-68852500468755672942016-05-25T04:31:00.605-07:002016-05-25T04:31:00.605-07:00The Senate Armed Services Committee NDAA FY2017 Ma...The Senate Armed Services Committee NDAA FY2017 May 18th on the future LCS/Frigate requirements.<br /> <br />Able to attack enemy surface ships at over-the-horizon ranges with multiple salvos. (Naval Strike Missile (NSM) or Harpoon?)<br /><br />Defend nearby non combatant ships from air and missile threats.(Replacing SeaRAM or adding the RIM-162 ESSM Block2?)<br /><br />Built to level one survivability design standards.<br /> <br />Long-duration escort or patrol missions without frequent refueling.(VDS and TAS ?)<br /><br />Not sure if either of the current two LCS designs, LM Freedom or Austral Independence would be able meet the above requirements.<br />The Freedom design has always been limited by its range, did see a quote that semi-planing hulls have 280% more resistance between 10 and 28 knots than standard displacement hulls. The the current Freedom range is 2,000 nm at 14.4 knots and the design for the Saudi's has a quoted range of 5,000 nm at 10 knots, but most commercial ships do not go that slowly, the big container ships typically cruise at 21 knots plus, the fleet replenishment oilers 20 knots.<br /><br />The Independence has the range capabilities but is severely handicapped by limited payload capacity and unable to meet the 150 ton required and as yet no indication that Austral can modify the hull for the Frigate. Navy talked of offloading 100 tons of fuel so able load the MCM kit. The question have not seen answered is whether the aluminium hull will meet the Level 1 survivability standards. <br /><br />https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CRPT-114srpt255/pdf/CRPT-114srpt255.pdf<br /><br /> Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14154573875521240433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-84604965886161607502016-05-24T18:10:06.633-07:002016-05-24T18:10:06.633-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Howdypartnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14995152060704851499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-60856110793788710712016-05-24T16:36:58.584-07:002016-05-24T16:36:58.584-07:00I think it depends on the threat environment. Mos...I think it depends on the threat environment. Most frigates, including Chinese frigates, have anti-air missiles in the ESSM class range. A MALE UAV should be able to stay outside that envelope while pinpointing enemy ship locations. Ditto for logistics and amphibious ships. And the LCS should then be able to sink those with impunity. Destroyer class ships may well shoot the UAV down but in doing so would betray its location. The LCS may be unwise to take on a ship such as this outside its class, but the same could be said for almost any frigate. Another destroyer or low observable jet should then take out the enemy craft.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01304674877447691661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-16199857999893826502016-05-24T16:31:34.998-07:002016-05-24T16:31:34.998-07:00Aegis has always had a full auto mode for that rea...Aegis has always had a full auto mode for that reason. Of course, it's never been tested, to the best of my knowledge, so we don't know if it will work - undoubtedly not as well as hoped.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-73098180475292142422016-05-24T16:29:52.451-07:002016-05-24T16:29:52.451-07:00On the plus side, both the Harpoon and NSM are fai...On the plus side, both the Harpoon and NSM are fairly proven commodities so I wouldn't expect major problems. Still, as you so aptly note, this is the LCS and everything seems to go wrong with it!ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-81471154178450081342016-05-24T16:16:48.613-07:002016-05-24T16:16:48.613-07:00Nick, you do sarcasm very well.Nick, you do sarcasm very well.Andrew S.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-77666782753693567372016-05-24T16:08:31.489-07:002016-05-24T16:08:31.489-07:00How long before the first major flaw is found with...How long before the first major flaw is found with this new missile? <br /><br />Everything seems to fall apart when put on the LCS so far. Targeting is a huge problem, as it will have to rely on other ships. <br /><br />Of course that means it cannot operate independently (well ok it couldn't to begin with due to its poor range), and that if the other ship is not available/disabled/taken out in combat, then it is blind. AltandMainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01014823246265859953noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-62260092052549404872016-05-24T14:09:53.971-07:002016-05-24T14:09:53.971-07:00OK, the next thing for you to consider is the surv...OK, the next thing for you to consider is the survivability of a slow, non-stealthy UAV. I do not see much high end combat utility for UAVs. They're going to wind up being target drones. The enemy is unlikely to allow us to cruise UAVs over their operational areas with impunity. <br /><br />It's not enough to just look at a weapon or system (UAV in this case) and buy into the manf's claims of wonderous benefits. You also have to look at how the item will be used in high end combat and what the enemy's reaction is likely to be.<br /><br />Give it some thought and tell me what you think.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-6324313475928714382016-05-24T13:35:31.341-07:002016-05-24T13:35:31.341-07:00I looked into this and stand corrected. Thank you...I looked into this and stand corrected. Thank you. I would suggest then that when the MALE UAV joins the fleet this may change the broad maritime surveillance capability of the LCS considerably.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01304674877447691661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-29125684639138508422016-05-24T10:19:33.936-07:002016-05-24T10:19:33.936-07:00I'm sorry but I have neither the time nor writ...I'm sorry but I have neither the time nor writing space to explain OTH phenomena. Here's some words to look up that will put you on the right track: over the horizon radar, HF skipping, groundwave propagation, ducting. You might also read up on ham radio ranges - they have good descriptions of the phenomena. Good luck.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-67864773270950249032016-05-24T09:57:44.950-07:002016-05-24T09:57:44.950-07:00A slight helping of sarcasm, but it seems silicon ...A slight helping of sarcasm, but it seems silicon valley, Google ,Apple & co investing very big money in the the self driving car made possible by AI coming of age. DoD is putting more money into silicon valley and just reorganized its presence.<br /> <br />A recent article by CBSA postulates that with the threat of the new generation of short range ballistic missiles eg the hypersonic Russian Iskander, with a man in the loop he/she will be too slow react in the seconds available to mount an effective defense. To optimise defense you need AI, the man will become redundant. Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14154573875521240433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-5996796513961760092016-05-24T09:22:12.185-07:002016-05-24T09:22:12.185-07:00I have. If you can explain to me how their active...I have. If you can explain to me how their active or passive detection bends over the horizon I'd be much obliged.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01304674877447691661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-29260209127163047842016-05-24T08:27:58.558-07:002016-05-24T08:27:58.558-07:00I could be wrong but I think Nick was engaging in ...I could be wrong but I think Nick was engaging in a bit of sarcasm there.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-83662711697816407822016-05-24T08:25:14.992-07:002016-05-24T08:25:14.992-07:00Tim, you need to research the Burke's detectio...Tim, you need to research the Burke's detection capabilities both active and passive.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-11437301241461705622016-05-24T08:03:59.830-07:002016-05-24T08:03:59.830-07:00I highly doubt any unmanned vehicle, let alone one...I highly doubt any unmanned vehicle, let alone one thats underwater, will have that kind of capability or reliability within the next 10 years. Besides that, the military currently dose not have any system that relies on wireless that cannot be spoofed, jammed, or traced. Weapons based with networking or semi-automation as a core component of their design, are inherently flawed at best. Andrew S.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-33935696077854102642016-05-24T07:34:18.853-07:002016-05-24T07:34:18.853-07:00No, I specified over the horizon targeting. Burke...No, I specified over the horizon targeting. Burke's high powered radars are great for air defense (which is their purpose of course), but of no use beyond the horizon. The only help you can enlist in targeting OTH are air assets. And a squad of LCS's will have more air assets.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01304674877447691661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-91807390476038077642016-05-24T07:26:57.998-07:002016-05-24T07:26:57.998-07:00The concept is not sound. The only way the concep...The concept is not sound. The only way the concept is sound is if you assume absolutely no enemy actions or resistance. Are you really going to make me continue to list all the weaknesses inherent in this "sound" concept?ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.com