tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post2370754888655214802..comments2024-03-28T07:56:09.239-07:00Comments on Navy Matters: Cold War ASW LessonsComNavOpshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-88332133464298473272015-10-20T17:03:16.662-07:002015-10-20T17:03:16.662-07:00"The Navy operates an entire oceanography com..."The Navy operates an entire oceanography command which continually studies and maps out the oceans and collects all manner of data. The Chinese have none of that."<br /><br />Oh really? Do tell.<br /><br />http://www.popsci.com/blog-network/eastern-arsenal/new-chinese-catamaran-spy-ship-learns-all-about-japanese-waterAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-64771970527632959182015-10-20T16:59:20.944-07:002015-10-20T16:59:20.944-07:00By forward deployed, I meant underway during perio...By forward deployed, I meant underway during periods of rising tension - so that if/when a conflict begins they are not vulnerable. <br /><br />Note that even a short-legged diesel can remain underway for a couple of weeks. An SSN can stay out for months.<br /><br />Note how China is building hardened pens. Presumably defended by IADS. Their subs won't be that easy to observe in peacetime or neutralize in wartime.<br /><br />Mining presumes you can get an aircraft or submarine in to deploy said mines. Currently much easier said than done.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-58726884967278098762015-10-20T13:02:47.808-07:002015-10-20T13:02:47.808-07:00Re: knowledge of undersea environment.
I am prett...Re: knowledge of undersea environment.<br /><br />I am pretty sure China has one of the largest oceanographic survey Fleet in world. If not the largest...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-36176756363450088232015-10-17T19:34:55.287-07:002015-10-17T19:34:55.287-07:00This article was found in USNI News...
http://news...This article was found in USNI News...<br />http://news.usni.org/2014/08/27/opinion-new-era-anti-submarine-warfareAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-69320818519179384402015-10-17T15:24:06.573-07:002015-10-17T15:24:06.573-07:00Anon,
I am not following your argument - the Chin...Anon,<br /><br />I am not following your argument - the Chinese are not 10 feet tall and the more forward deployed they are, the more vulnerable - please explain ?<br /><br />GABAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-17477187335339334652015-10-16T16:08:07.881-07:002015-10-16T16:08:07.881-07:00No personal attack were intended. I am sorry if ...No personal attack were intended. I am sorry if you took it that way.<br /><br />I've tried to make my points to you via evidence. You have presented none. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-51202548143860365882015-10-16T14:37:13.157-07:002015-10-16T14:37:13.157-07:00I have been polite and patient with you. Return t...I have been polite and patient with you. Return the courtesy or find another blog more to your liking. If you have something to contribute that would be of interest and benefit to all, please do so. Personal attacks will not be tolerated.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-74527598571352183422015-10-16T14:31:05.722-07:002015-10-16T14:31:05.722-07:00A comment was removed. Obscenities and personal a...A comment was removed. Obscenities and personal attacks will not be tolerated.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-64007404970845552212015-10-16T11:11:29.583-07:002015-10-16T11:11:29.583-07:00GAB. Yes, but only if the enemy if the enemy is s...GAB. Yes, but only if the enemy if the enemy is stupid enough to present such vulnerabilities!<br /><br />A smart enemy would deploy keep large numbers of his subs forward deployed. And harden his submarine bases. And protect them with IADS.<br /><br />Pretty much everything China we are seeing China do!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-38130028569569056302015-10-16T11:01:14.567-07:002015-10-16T11:01:14.567-07:00Hmm. So the Chinese are building an ocean-going A...Hmm. So the Chinese are building an ocean-going AIP sub- but they have no near-term plans to venture into open ocean. Hmmm.<br /><br />Limited oceanagraphic surveillance capability? Yeah. Right.<br /><br />http://www.popsci.com/blog-network/eastern-arsenal/new-chinese-catamaran-spy-ship-learns-all-about-japanese-water<br /><br />Just stop writing and read. ONI reports, RAND reports, and other indications all point to PRC building an open-ocean submarine force. And soon. Probably not worldwide deployable like the USN, but definitely deployable past 2nd island chain.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-5427808398095018512015-10-16T06:45:34.460-07:002015-10-16T06:45:34.460-07:00"CNO I am not sure why you think mapping the ..."CNO I am not sure why you think mapping the ocean floors or even oceanographic knowledge is a prerequisite."<br /><br />Knowledge of the ocean, thermoclines, acoustic propagation characteristics, water density, ocean floor geography (so your sub doesn't plow into a peak), etc. is critical to operating successfully in the open ocean. The Navy operates an entire oceanography command which continually studies and maps out the oceans and collects all manner of data. The Chinese have none of that. Their subs would, literally, be operating in the dark in the Pacific. They are just beginning to stick their toe in the Pacific water, so to speak, but at the moment they have no open ocean operational capability. Could they slowly and cautiously transit the ocean? Sure, but that's not even remotely equivalent to being able to operate in combat in the Pacific. Add to that a limited strategic interest beyond the first island chain (for the moment, although that, too, will change) and it's clear they have neither the requirement nor capability to operate in the open ocean.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-84882027404337271672015-10-16T06:16:14.812-07:002015-10-16T06:16:14.812-07:00Andres, thanks for the link. I was not aware of t...Andres, thanks for the link. I was not aware of that. I wonder what degree of on-going training is taking place, if any? I suspect not a lot given that I hadn't heard of it. Again, thanks!ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-2078915534985472492015-10-16T06:14:24.993-07:002015-10-16T06:14:24.993-07:00Did you read the article you linked to? Anon, tha...Did you read the article you linked to? Anon, that's a nice example of an infrequent exercise that involved 4 ships. The exercise is held every other year. That averages to two ships per year getting an ASW exercise for a couple of days. That hardly constitutes a regular, rigorous ASW training program. <br /><br />I did not say that there were no ASW training exercises. I said that our training was woefully inadequate. ASW is one of those skills that must be practiced continually in order to be proficient. A couple of days per year is not adequate. Your example proves my point.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-73877877727618201912015-10-16T03:49:30.720-07:002015-10-16T03:49:30.720-07:00Chilean Navy's 209 class Thomson SSK deployed ...Chilean Navy's 209 class Thomson SSK deployed to San Diego in 2014 under DESI. http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=80772Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01979032935712660177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-81707935900116034362015-10-16T03:39:05.337-07:002015-10-16T03:39:05.337-07:00Here's an example of a recent, recurring large...Here's an example of a recent, recurring large-scale ASW exercise. The Australians were involved. Probably a safe assumption that we trained against one of their COLLINS class.<br /><br />http://www.pacom.mil/Media/News/tabid/5693/Article/607598/anti-submarine-warfare-exercise-promotes-stability-security-during-talisman-sab.aspxAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-19654451645288515182015-10-16T03:34:37.466-07:002015-10-16T03:34:37.466-07:00CNO I am not sure why you think mapping the ocean...CNO I am not sure why you think mapping the ocean floors or even oceanographic knowledge is a prerequisite. If that was the case, the Soviets would've never gotten its boats into the Atlantic in the 50s and 60s.<br /><br />As to when China will build an open ocean submarine force, an article by CAPT Chris Carlson entailed "Essay Inside the Design of China’s Yuan-class Submarine" indicates they are building the YUAN to do that very thing.<br /><br />"... the Type 039 A/B Yuan-class is, in fact, an open-ocean submarine designed to meet the needs of the PLAN’s near-seas active defense aspect of their maritime strategy, and not primarily a boat to operate in Taiwan’s coastal waters."<br /><br />http://news.usni.org/2015/08/31/essay-inside-the-design-of-chinas-yuan-class-submarine<br /> Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-60319650024851752902015-10-15T19:38:27.775-07:002015-10-15T19:38:27.775-07:00Very good point. The existing ASW strategy was on...Very good point. The existing ASW strategy was only to lead up to the first 10 min of war.Ztev Konradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06553128132098513643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-45287222239861179412015-10-15T17:52:41.844-07:002015-10-15T17:52:41.844-07:00Given the rate of progress China has made on this ...Given the rate of progress China has made on this one, I would not bet that it will remain that way for more than a couple of decades.<br /><br />Russia of course does have that experience, but they are limited by their economy more than anything else. AltandMainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01014823246265859953noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-21555383860247028752015-10-15T15:30:09.594-07:002015-10-15T15:30:09.594-07:00CNO,
Great article, but I note that Cold War ASW ...CNO,<br /><br />Great article, but I note that Cold War ASW is not the same as wartime ASW.<br /><br />I also note that the most obvious wartime ASW tactic is not ASW at all: it is pounding the naval bases to rubble, offensive mining of operational areas, and rolling up the enemy logistics chain!<br /><br />GABAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-40952610524064418042015-10-15T11:20:58.061-07:002015-10-15T11:20:58.061-07:00The article indicates that the lease for the Gotla...The article indicates that the lease for the Gotland was extended another year. The sub departed in 2007 for Sweden.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-3214779815054116442015-10-15T09:45:03.002-07:002015-10-15T09:45:03.002-07:00Here's my source about the Swedish sub.....
h...Here's my source about the Swedish sub.....<br /><br />http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/sweden-has-a-sub-thats-so-deadly-the-us-navy-hired-it-t-1649695984Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-57769934436173824842015-10-15T02:04:34.906-07:002015-10-15T02:04:34.906-07:00There are probably 25 SSKs available from allies...There are probably 25 SSKs available from allies to train with. Germany has 5 and more building. Australia, Japan,Korea Taiwan etc etc.<br />Havent heard about it ? Well the submarine has always been the ultimate stealth weapon.<br />of course the US doesnt need as many subs for tailing, as the Russian numbers are way way down. Did I say way down? Their doctrine was to stay longer in port as well.<br />The massive effort that the US put into ASW in the Cold war had its effect as the Soviets changed their approach, keeping their SSBN close by in Arctic waters. Being able to fire missiles through the ice, or while tied up at the dock. They have also been the the only nation to test a full salvo firing. I think now their SSN are now tasked with only protecting the boomersZtev Konradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06553128132098513643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-10045761033618677642015-10-14T18:40:52.020-07:002015-10-14T18:40:52.020-07:00Those are training missions working towards open o...Those are training missions working towards open ocean capability. They still are not working too far from land and shallow water. They don't have ocean floors and features mapped out or an understanding of open ocean conditions that would support open ocean work, yet. This will change but not for the foreseeable future. You don't acquire open ocean submarine expertise overnight.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-26560064849933333022015-10-14T15:46:30.094-07:002015-10-14T15:46:30.094-07:00Worth looking at.
Both Japan and Australia can f...Worth looking at. <br /><br />Both Japan and Australia can field small flat tops laden down with ASW choppers, SSKs and frigates, and dedicated MPAs.<br /><br />South Korea's got another similar taskforce, in a flap anything short of WWIII you'd expect the brits to turn up with something similar, and then there's the always surprising Singaporean Navy.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05559923861773775748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-54614091993983448472015-10-14T15:15:01.335-07:002015-10-14T15:15:01.335-07:00ComNavOps. Recent, fairly public Chinese sub fora...ComNavOps. Recent, fairly public Chinese sub forays into the Indian Ocean don't seem to support your assertion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com