tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post5953339256402378917..comments2024-03-28T07:56:09.239-07:00Comments on Navy Matters: Pegasus Class HydrofoilsComNavOpshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-27628246370799564802018-12-02T12:10:46.667-08:002018-12-02T12:10:46.667-08:00I served aboard USS Aquila (PHM-4) from September ...I served aboard USS Aquila (PHM-4) from September 1989 until the squadron was decommissioned. I then transferred to Pre-commission duty aboard USS John S. McCain (DDG-56). I was the EW1(SW) for the Aquila. I was also a Master helmsman for the ship. They were very capable vessels. The costs to operate the squadron command, Mobile logistics Support Group (MLSG) and the six hydrofoil ship was at that time 6% of SURFLANT's annual budget. The ships actually could run on diesel fuel or JP-5 fuel. JP-5 fuel was primarily used to keep the fuel injectors cleaner. During hull ops fuel consumption was 230 gallons per hour for the two diesel engines and the two ships service power units (SSPU). During foil ops we used 1035 gallons per hour. The ships did have RBOC MK-34 mounted on the port and starboard sides on the 01 level.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09057281112927873840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-6068724702217321792015-06-29T12:34:59.989-07:002015-06-29T12:34:59.989-07:00Anon, operationally relevant, in the case of the L...Anon, operationally relevant, in the case of the LCS, means using them for what they were designed for: MCM, and anti-swarm threats in the MidEast as well as ASW aimed at Iranian diesel subs. The LCS is not being deployed to those areas.<br /><br />I have no problem with show-the-flag work but we don't need to send a $700B LCS to do that. We can put a US flag on any old ship and send it to visit foreign ports.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-58392802448428694292015-06-28T18:36:53.948-07:002015-06-28T18:36:53.948-07:00I am not sure how you are choosing to define "...I am not sure how you are choosing to define "operationally relevant manner" since you did not mention that criteria in your first post. So I will take a crack.<br /><br />Fort Worth (LCS-3) was doing the sort of presence mission that FF(x)Gs have done since early 00's. Like it or not - showing the flag and acting as a 'tripwire' are important missions.<br /><br />To repeat - I am not a big fan of LCS. But we do need ships over in PACOM for day-to-day, low-end ops. I'd rather send an LCS, and reserve DDGs for high-end operations.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-35923281970510823102015-06-27T19:12:07.251-07:002015-06-27T19:12:07.251-07:00Anon, no, the LCS is not being deployed in an oper...Anon, no, the LCS is not being deployed in an operationally relevant manner to an operationally relevant area. It was built for anti-swarm in the MidEast, MCM, and ASW. There are no operational MCM or ASW modules and an LCS with the extremely minimal ASuW module is not being deployed to the MidEast. PACOM is just a PR tour. Read the report on Freedom's tour. It didn't do anything. It just sat in port and did a few PR appearances when they could get it working.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-619163934665776172015-06-27T16:50:22.991-07:002015-06-27T16:50:22.991-07:00PS - I am not an LCS fanboy. I personally think d...PS - I am not an LCS fanboy. I personally think deploying LCS to PACOM is a "net negative" for the Navy.<br /><br />But the fact remains that Navy is using it there.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-41646021744566545182015-06-27T16:46:21.698-07:002015-06-27T16:46:21.698-07:00They just deployed LCS-3 to South China Sea. That...They just deployed LCS-3 to South China Sea. That's about as operationally relevant of an area as I can imagine.<br /><br />http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/13/politics/south-china-sea-us-surveillance-aircraft/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-30746060685456162112015-06-27T15:21:11.354-07:002015-06-27T15:21:11.354-07:00We should probably compare the LCS to ships of sim...We should probably compare the LCS to ships of similar displacement and perhaps role.<br /><br />I've noted that perhaps the closest comparison is the Russian Steregushchy-class corvette. It's slower, but it's quite heavily armed. AltandMainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01014823246265859953noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-86533030222692325272015-06-26T15:56:37.747-07:002015-06-26T15:56:37.747-07:00I don't think you can just wave the super powe...I don't think you can just wave the super power status, and then assert therefore that a well balanced, littoral defence force is unnecessary, then ignore it completely, or attempt to secure it with platforms that are unsuited such as USN cruisers.<br /><br />Brute force is never a good soloution, sure the USN might need less such forces than say the PLN but too say it needs no such forces, particularly in an era of agressive forward deployment near potential conflict zones, sometimes in littorals.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-24733318465168422532015-06-26T13:14:49.733-07:002015-06-26T13:14:49.733-07:00I should also note that the hydrofoil is not too g...I should also note that the hydrofoil is not too good for rough seas as well (foils down anyways). AltandMainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01014823246265859953noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-41841318180318052352015-06-26T13:11:57.933-07:002015-06-26T13:11:57.933-07:00I'm wondering how much a modern 500-1000 ton h...I'm wondering how much a modern 500-1000 ton hydrofoil would probably cost and the weapons that could be put on it.<br /><br />It would be pretty fast at burst speeds (being a hydrofoil has this advantage).<br /><br />The Russians have a boat called the Matka-class, about ~250-260 tons fully loaded. It's pretty well loaded for it's size:<br /><br />- ~42 knots <br />- 76mm gun<br />- AK-630 missile defense<br />- 8x Kh-35 Anti-shipping missiles <br /><br />Range probably is not too good (these are in the Caspian Sea I think), but they'd work fine in any littoral and as a defensive sea denial ship. <br /><br />The big drawback of hydrofoils is their complexity and sometimes they can be high maintenance. <br /><br />They can have issues if they hit something too (garbage, marine life, etc). That being said, I know Hong Kong uses hydrofoils a lot - I'd love to get more information about that. AltandMainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01014823246265859953noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-28459781324565528372015-06-26T11:07:16.984-07:002015-06-26T11:07:16.984-07:00That would do it - and it is big enough to share m...That would do it - and it is big enough to share most of the LCS's mission modules.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06903319036536002543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-38887949823714270832015-06-26T09:42:56.357-07:002015-06-26T09:42:56.357-07:00"'d still prefer the Super Hornets or P-8..."'d still prefer the Super Hornets or P-8. They have more high end combat value."<br /><br />I get that. I wonder though if you could have this craft do those missions and save wear and tear on the SH's. You could probably have an ambassador class last a long time doing those kind of low end missions; saving some flight hours on the SH's.JFWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16095723023404412328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-934125760555975632015-06-26T09:38:33.333-07:002015-06-26T09:38:33.333-07:00"Any ship operating alone is vulnerable to sw..."Any ship operating alone is vulnerable to swarm attacks. Even a Burke is susceptible. If enough missiles are shot at it, some will get through"<br /><br />True. But in a situation where there isn't a swarm the Burke could hold its own. If anything happened when the Fort Worth ran into that Chinese Frigate, the Fort Worth would have likely been sunken or at least badly mauled. JFWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16095723023404412328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-87764983686024202282015-06-26T09:36:12.962-07:002015-06-26T09:36:12.962-07:00That PHM's may/may not have had bigger a role ...That PHM's may/may not have had bigger a role in the US Navy. I think its fair to say that they never really got the shot. <br /><br />Could they have performed a roll in the Persian gulf? I don't know. <br />It would have been interesting to find out. In the end I think we would have not made more anyway. But it was an interesting class. <br /><br />" it's only fair to note that the LCS was never intended to be a ship-killer"<br /><br />That's very fair. I disagree with the premise, but its very fair. <br /><br />I just wish they'd taken a more PHM approach to the LCS; but done it honestly: <br /><br />Lets build 6 and see what we can do with them. <br /><br />Then 'The mission module isn't working' or 'The missile we planned on using got cancelled' isn't such a big deal. And the evolving mission for this thing (I have a quote somewhere from an admiral about how the LCS would "Kick the A$$" of anything else in the littorals) would just be the normal experimentation of a worthwhile idea. JFWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16095723023404412328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-91169984310438479992015-06-26T08:57:01.009-07:002015-06-26T08:57:01.009-07:00"An LCS is better at LCS missions (maybe, som..."An LCS is better at LCS missions (maybe, someday)."<br /><br />There's a low standard to meet!ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-38678882216302134072015-06-26T08:12:54.313-07:002015-06-26T08:12:54.313-07:00You're welcome! I'm here to help and ente...You're welcome! I'm here to help and entertain! I always found the PHMs fascinating as the modern day equivalent to the WWII PT boat.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-40540232774261854082015-06-26T08:10:55.875-07:002015-06-26T08:10:55.875-07:00"Did they ever use these as opposition force ..."Did they ever use these as opposition force for training the US carrier and amphibious groups."<br /><br />Not that I'm aware. "Big Navy" seems to have largely ignored the PHMs and marginalized them by sticking them off in a corner to do drug smuggling patrols. The Navy made no real effort to see what they could do. The same may turn out to be true of the LCS. So far, the LCS is not being deployed into operationally relevant areas. To be fair, the LCS has no operationally relevant modules so deployment would be pointless.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-5986249025136995052015-06-26T08:06:38.870-07:002015-06-26T08:06:38.870-07:00"Provided accurate targeting data, Oto Melara..."Provided accurate targeting data, Oto Melara claims several subsonic missiles can be engaged and defeated simultaneously with the modern versions of their 76mm cannon."<br /><br />Anon, the Mk57 was/is claimed to have the same kind of anti-missile, AAW capability and yet operational experience shows that it is quite limited and, at least on the LCS platform, wildly inaccurate if the ship is making more than 10 kts or so.<br /><br />The point is that manufacturer's claims are always wildly exaggerated and the reality is always far less. That doesn't mean that the 76 mm is not a good general purpose gun but until someone proves it can shoot down a cruise missile in a realistic test, it's just an unsubstantiated claim that history suggests can't be met.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-30298790580564636062015-06-26T08:02:14.083-07:002015-06-26T08:02:14.083-07:00"But in any case, the LCS with SUW module was..."But in any case, the LCS with SUW module wasn't originally intended to fight ASCM-armed FACs. That was still the purview of air power and other systems. It was supposed to handle "swarms" of smaller vessels."<br /><br />Quite right and a good point to keep in mind. Of course, one can reasonably argue about what the primary missions should have been but it's only fair to note that the LCS was never intended to be a ship-killer, as you fairly point out.<br /><br />Good comment.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-16899698674740283382015-06-26T08:00:56.099-07:002015-06-26T08:00:56.099-07:00A low cost, low risk, modular patrol vessel - some...A low cost, low risk, modular patrol vessel - something like the The Royal Danish Navy's Flyvefisken-class - would fit the bill. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06903319036536002543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-26725456002429055142015-06-26T08:00:09.124-07:002015-06-26T08:00:09.124-07:00"A suitably-equipped LCS will (eventually) be..."A suitably-equipped LCS will (eventually) be somewhat competent at both of those missions."<br /><br />Wow! Given the total lack of success after a decade of development, you still are buying into the LCS?? Yes, I noticed your use of the phrase "somewhat competent". Still, your degree of faith in the absence of any evidence, whatsoever, is inspiring. I guess that's why they call it faith!<br /><br />Go Team LCS!<br /><br />Just having some fun with you!ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-12713037274289151922015-06-26T07:56:06.040-07:002015-06-26T07:56:06.040-07:00"I'd still prefer the Super Hornets or P-..."I'd still prefer the Super Hornets or P-8. They have more high end combat value.<br /><br />I agree there is a need to have patrol vessels. I just don't see the value in high-speed, short-ranged FACs."<br /><br />Again, it depends on what you want to accomplish. <br /><br />Aircraft operating from bases suffer from the fact that the airbase location is exactly known and a peer enemy is not going to allow us to operate our airbases. Ballistic and cruise missiles will negate our airbases fairly quickly. Aircraft operating from carriers will be used for missions other than the type of local, littoral sea control missions that a PHM/FAC would do.<br /><br />A PHM/FAC also offers the type of presence/deterrence that I know you're fond of, that an aircraft can't.<br /><br />I don't want to turn this into a one-or-the-other debate. Ships and aircraft will have their roles and both will be useful.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-87005140451475337932015-06-26T07:50:39.261-07:002015-06-26T07:50:39.261-07:00"At the end of the day, I think the modern lo..."At the end of the day, I think the modern long-range, multi-role, UAV equipped FAC is a compliment to a balanced littoral defence force, rather than an alternative to any single system."<br /><br />Quite reasonable and well said.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-46797344628138602942015-06-26T07:48:29.104-07:002015-06-26T07:48:29.104-07:00"I'd rather pay to operate one multi-role..."I'd rather pay to operate one multi-role, globally-deployable frigate than four short-ranged FACs."<br /><br />I'm sure you'd agree that it all depends on what you're trying to accomplish.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-73530704724381205002015-06-26T07:47:06.694-07:002015-06-26T07:47:06.694-07:00How brilliant, I had missed this class and have no...How brilliant, I had missed this class and have now spent a happy hour researching and looking at some very cool pictures. Thanks CNO.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12729830680739249692noreply@blogger.com