tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post114477009530529345..comments2024-03-18T17:57:44.714-07:00Comments on Navy Matters: Two More LCS Ships Break DownComNavOpshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-15170416026903364442016-09-05T08:18:21.329-07:002016-09-05T08:18:21.329-07:00On the off chance that you're asking a serious...On the off chance that you're asking a serious question as opposed to a humorous observation, the answer to a refund is that once the government accepts delivery (after builder's trials, acceptance trials, and various inspections) there is no return. By performing the trials and inspections and formally accepting delivery, the government is on record as stating that the ship has met all contractual requirments. Return policies, even in stores, is not a right - it's just a courtesy that the manufacturer voluntarily elects to offer the consumer. The underlying fact is that once we pay for an item in a store, it is ours with no return option unless the manufacturer chooses to offer such.<br /><br />In the case of a ship, the manufacturer offers every opportunity for the military to examine the ship, operate it for a period of time, inspect it, and otherwise assure itself that the ship meets all requirements. From the manufacturer's point of view, having offered all that opportunity to evaluate the product and having been formally told that the ship meets all requirements, why would the manufacturer then offer a return? The blame for this lies 100% with the military for having accepted a flawed product instead of insisting that the ship meet all requirements before acceptance. ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-18698925545668087112016-09-04T20:26:25.595-07:002016-09-04T20:26:25.595-07:00Can we return them? Get ones that do work from a b...Can we return them? Get ones that do work from a better company? Sometimes things I have brought from the store have had issues or didn't work properly, when I have taken them back to the store I have been able to get a refund.<br /><br />Has anyone asked what their refund policy is on goods that aren't fit for purpose and don't meet contractual requirements?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-75391610604011572292016-09-04T16:02:55.618-07:002016-09-04T16:02:55.618-07:00"the hull itself is optimized for operations ..."the hull itself is optimized for operations within the littoral zone"<br /><br />This is the myth upon which the LCS was originally sold to a Congress and public that lacked critical thinking. For example, the Freedom class LCS has a draft of 13 ft and a Burke has a draft of 30 ft. What tactical operation can be performed in 13 ft of water that can't be performed in 30 ft?<br /><br />The LCS was sold on its ability to go into shallow water without ever explaining what tactical operation would be performed in that narrow band between 13 ft and 30 ft.<br /><br />If you know of such an operation, share it with me!ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-57175899615243052412016-09-04T14:21:33.380-07:002016-09-04T14:21:33.380-07:00The LCS is specialized for conducting operations i...The LCS is specialized for conducting operations in areas with shallow water. So while it can perform multiple different mission profiles, the hull itself is optimized for operations within the littoral zone, hence the name littoral combat ship. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-90492662672105138772016-09-04T05:15:42.224-07:002016-09-04T05:15:42.224-07:00"The LCS simply looks like a jack-of-all trad..."The LCS simply looks like a jack-of-all trades"<br /><br />There's the problem. The LCS is NOT a jack-of-all-trades. It's a jack-of-none. The basic seaframe has virtually no combat capability and there are, as yet, no functional modules that add any worthwhile combat capability. In fact, the only supposedly functional module is the anti-surface and it adds only two 30 mm machine guns, a rubber boat, and a helicopter. That's not exactly high end combat!<br /><br />If the LCS were actually a jack-of-all-trades, it might have at least some value.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-74941675476627742312016-09-03T23:02:29.404-07:002016-09-03T23:02:29.404-07:00As a total outsider (Australian), it seems to me t...As a total outsider (Australian), it seems to me that if the USN wanted to replace PBs and MCMs, it could have done it much more quickly and easily with dedicated designs. Appropriate designs probably already exist (though they may not be of US origin).<br /><br />If the USN needs frigates, then design new or adapt an existing frigate design. The LCS clearly is not a frigates bootlace!<br /><br />The LCS simply looks like a jack-of-all trades, master-of-none.<br /><br />As an aside, the RAN is in the process of deciding upon a new frigate design, 9 of which are planned. The choice is down to 3 designs - the Italian FREMM, an adapted hull from our still-building Hobart-class DDGs, or the still non existent Type 26 from Britain. The great shame of it is that US couldn't offer a design. The RAN had great success operating 6 Perry class frigates and I think that the RAN would have favored a US design had one been available. LCS was never a consideration. Export opportunities lost big time...RAN74https://www.blogger.com/profile/11937633175359097070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-5636009978599625922016-09-02T17:56:24.432-07:002016-09-02T17:56:24.432-07:00"supporting special operations forces with su..."supporting special operations forces with supplies, helicopters, UAV's, etc."<br /><br />That may or may not be a valid use for an LCS but it certainly wasn't what the LCS was designed for. It was designed for MCM, ASW, and ASuW. The LCS has, so far, failed utterly to be what it was designed to be. Whether it can be salvaged by coverting it to some other role remains to be seen but do not try to rewrite history.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-69301249630312678072016-09-02T17:53:01.225-07:002016-09-02T17:53:01.225-07:00"The point of the LCS is to handle jobs that ..."The point of the LCS is to handle jobs that don't require a destroyer."<br /><br />You're doing it again. You're changing the story. You stated that the LCS is a replacement for the MCM and PC and that was incorrect. Instead, you're trying to change to a debate about the role of the LCS. Own it and move on. <br />ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-27999868817334241522016-09-02T17:49:59.695-07:002016-09-02T17:49:59.695-07:00"The LCS has enough space to carry all sorts ..."The LCS has enough space to carry all sorts of useful stuff."<br /><br />If it can't deploy it, it's of no use.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-78207497443703041452016-09-02T17:39:23.092-07:002016-09-02T17:39:23.092-07:00Also, the Stryker was just an example. The LCS ha...Also, the Stryker was just an example. The LCS has enough space to carry all sorts of useful stuff.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-43199690110147566292016-09-02T17:01:53.687-07:002016-09-02T17:01:53.687-07:00Think of it this way. You can have an LCS operati...Think of it this way. You can have an LCS operating off the coast of Africa somewhere, supporting special operations forces with supplies, helicopters, UAV's, etc. From the LCS, SEAL teams can be inserted by raft and extracted via helicopter, or vice versa. These are activities which have great importance to counter-terrorism operations, but it would be a waste of resources to have a destroyer assigned to these activities. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-55025701051343504822016-09-02T16:27:05.946-07:002016-09-02T16:27:05.946-07:00Why do we need a mini-destroyer? We have enough a...Why do we need a mini-destroyer? We have enough actual destroyers. I understand that people EXPECT a mini-destroyer, but they are wrong. Such a vessel would not be particularly useful for the US navy because unlike other navies, the USN has a large supply of real destroyers (which are much larger than the destroyers most other countries have). The point of the LCS is to handle jobs that don't require a destroyer. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-79856786822668320072016-09-02T16:20:14.213-07:002016-09-02T16:20:14.213-07:00"In terms of armament, the LCS only needs to ..."In terms of armament, the LCS only needs to be able to repel an attack from smaller water craft."<br /><br />Really? Well, that's great news. I was afraid that an enemy would attack an LCS with whatever ship, aircraft, or missile they happened to have handy. It's a relief to know that they won't attack with anything other than a "smaller water craft". I incorrectly assumed that if an enemy missile boat, corvetter, frigate, or destroyer attacked an LCS that the LCS would have to fight back but if an LCS can only be attacked by smaller water craft then I completely understand why the LCS has such meager armament. This is very good news!ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-81084914435551346112016-09-02T16:15:28.073-07:002016-09-02T16:15:28.073-07:00Stryker? What are you talking about? I guess a St...Stryker? What are you talking about? I guess a Stryker can be loaded on an LCS but it can't be unloaded except at a suitably equipped port. I'm missing your point.ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-43499998319620918572016-09-02T16:12:09.231-07:002016-09-02T16:12:09.231-07:00"Part of the problem is that people look at t..."Part of the problem is that people look at the LCS and they expect it do be some kind of mini-destroyer. Not so. The LCS is functionally a replacement for the cyclone-class patrol boats as well as the avenger-class minesweeper."<br /><br />You're engaged in the after-the-fact fact manipulation that LCS supporters so often do. The LCS failed so you're trying to change the "facts" so that failure becomes success.<br /><br />To wit ... The LCS was built to replace THREE classes, not two. It was built to replace the Avenger MCM, the Cyclone PC, AND THE PERRY FFG. So, given that a frigate (the Perry class) IS A MINI-DESTROYER, people are correct in expecting the LCS to be a mini-destroyer. <br /><br />More proof, if you don't recall the original LCS plan: the LCS build was 55 vessels. Given that there were 12 Avengers and 12 or so PCs (depending on how many PCs were in commission in the Navy at the given moment), that's only 24 ships. If we consider the LCS to be a one-for-one replacement for those classes (and it was never intended to be that), that leaves 31 replacements for the 71 Perrys that the Navy had. That's a 1 for 2 replacement ratio of a vessel that has only a tiny fraction of the capability of the Perrys.<br /><br />Setting aside the inherently flawed logic in expecting 31 LCS to equal 71 FFGs, the LCS was intended to have the NLOS system which was to be its main weapon. That, of course, failed and we're left with a frigate replacement that barely qualifies as a Coast Guard vessel.<br /><br />So, now we've disposed of the inaccuracy in your statement. Go back and read the original documents. Don't change the facts after-the-fact!ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-69943792510565937752016-09-02T15:09:59.872-07:002016-09-02T15:09:59.872-07:00Part of the problem is that people look at the LCS...Part of the problem is that people look at the LCS and they expect it do be some kind of mini-destroyer. Not so. The LCS is functionally a replacement for the cyclone-class patrol boats as well as the avenger-class minesweeper. The large flight deck and aviation hanger of the LCS allows them to support land operations to a far greater degree than previous patrol vessels. They can launch UAV's and helicopters. They can carry Strykers. They can deploy rafts out the back.<br /><br />In terms of armament, the LCS only needs to be able to repel an attack from smaller water craft. And with a 57mm and hellfires, it should have no problem with that. They can even attach two 30mm guns on top of the aviation hanger if additional swarm defense is needed.<br /><br />The mechanical issues are frustrating, but they're not a deal-breaker. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-52216728452937806932016-09-02T15:06:11.305-07:002016-09-02T15:06:11.305-07:00Why?Why?ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-64256750628215018282016-09-02T14:55:54.842-07:002016-09-02T14:55:54.842-07:00Another option would be the Holland-class offshore...Another option would be the Holland-class offshore patrol vessel, also made by Damen.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-82971717037493179352016-09-02T10:24:23.357-07:002016-09-02T10:24:23.357-07:00"I really like the concept of the LCS."
..."I really like the concept of the LCS."<br /><br />Your credibility just took a serious hit!ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-59027966353309911462016-09-02T10:23:40.002-07:002016-09-02T10:23:40.002-07:00"Damen is offering an alternative known as th..."Damen is offering an alternative known as the Crossover series that I think deserves a serious look at."<br /><br />Why?ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-46711205397690139572016-09-02T10:23:09.367-07:002016-09-02T10:23:09.367-07:00"The actual product needs a bit of tweaking, ..."The actual product needs a bit of tweaking, though."<br /><br />A strong, strong candidate for understatement of the year!ComNavOpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09669644332369727431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-59426781281643954072016-09-02T10:13:36.011-07:002016-09-02T10:13:36.011-07:00I really like the concept of the LCS. The actual ...I really like the concept of the LCS. The actual product needs a bit of tweaking, though. Damen is offering an alternative known as the Crossover series that I think deserves a serious look at. There are several different versions that could be made, and while they are larger and slower than the current LCS they seem more heavily armed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-8544394191181162102016-09-01T17:29:45.587-07:002016-09-01T17:29:45.587-07:00This. So long as senior USN leadership can look fo...This. So long as senior USN leadership can look forward to cushy jobs after retirement, it will go on.<br /><br />That's the really sad part. The US has basically institutionalized corruption in the military the way you'd expect some third world authoritarian society to do so. AltandMainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01014823246265859953noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-19346160622491750542016-08-31T18:13:36.491-07:002016-08-31T18:13:36.491-07:00@Andrew S
The Coast Guard needs reliable ships as...@Andrew S<br /><br />The Coast Guard needs reliable ships as well. That would simply not work out.AltandMainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01014823246265859953noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5579907756656776056.post-89008203030505702512016-08-31T10:46:53.544-07:002016-08-31T10:46:53.544-07:00USNI reported, "The ship is operating under i...USNI reported, "The ship is operating under its own power with a speed restriction of 10 knots, two sources familiar with the casualty told USNI News."<br /><br />And, "The statement provided to USNI News indicated the root cause is unknown, but the two sources said crew members saw electricity arcing around the Vulkan shaft and coupling system that routes the output from the ship’s General Electric LM 2500 gas turbines and MTU main propulsion diesel engines to the ship’s waterjets."<br /><br />https://news.usni.org/2016/08/30/lcs-uss-coronado-suffers-engineering-casualty-returning-pearl-harbor<br /><br />Doesn't sound like a minor repair.Fighting Irishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03062665701910071556noreply@blogger.com